Paul, at this point you know very well where I am coming from. Bearing that in mind, I want to congratulate you on what I think is correct and 'truthful' observation that you've called the 'triple loop'. Indeed I think that you have touched on a 'reality' that is more telling than you may realize.

Although you still try to qualify your absolutes so as to leave open a way of potential escape, your intellectual prowess serves you well. Keep in mind that it is not as though I am in a position to affirm your ideas as truth. I am not the teacher here, and I like the fact that you (as well as Anne) do not speak as though you are above anyone else. We are certainly all travelers in a realm such as this though we are all at different points in the journey. I just cannot help but confirm where our positions are the same, and I want to show where that takes me. We are by no means at complete odds here and I have tried as best I can to make respectful, yet clear distinctions of our differences.

You said: "I was intrigued by the interest in "pathologies" of the triple loop organization, and by the idea that there are important and characteristic ones associated with different loop interruptions. The basic problem with "Truth" or "Reality" is that it discourages continuing looping, by suggesting that some things are no longer challengeable. This is the "empirical" interruption of both the unconscious/story teller and intersubjective loops. The "faith" interruption is, of course, of the inside/outside or empirical loop and, perhaps of the unconscious/story teller loop as well. Its worth thinking more about various different kinds of interruption and associated different pathologies, but also worth noting the generalization: things that discourage any of the three loops create problems. Another way of saying this is that the system is designed (evolutionarily) to sustain ongoing inquiry (ie it depends on profound skepticism)."

I understand what you mean by faith... 'some blind leap at one level or another without due reason or observation to support it.

For the record, that is not what the Biblical term 'faith' means at all. That is a gross misunderstanding underwhich I labored as well. It is better defined as 'trust' when you look at the context in the original Biblical languages. For more on that point you can go here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bRuxYaiTg4g

That being said, I also agree that a 'profound skepticism' is justified when seeking something so lofty as God (ie. reality). And I assume we would all agree that that is not the same thing as cynicism. We simply cannot trust ourselves blindly anymore than we can trust our neighbor blindly. But if they and/or ourselves prove to be growing and thoughtful (in the wholistic sense) then 'trusting' is certainly justified.

Even Ronald Reagan knew that when he said, 'Trust... but verify'.

What is it that is so powerful about three dimensions (or confirmations) agreeing and harmonizing?

What is it in a trinitarian formula that is so profound?

You are no fool Paul... you see the connection I am making.

But I think you are mistaken that such a view puts a stop to further inquiry. As you said, there are problems associated with taking one loop in spite of the other two. But if we try to say that the triple loop stops inquiry, then we must be prepaired to examine the potential of accepting testimony based on pure subjection and that is absurd. We will always have subjection, and we will always find it lacking when juxtaposed with the triple loop.

I just wanted to point it out. And I wanted to say in a different way that this trinitarian solution is the absolute you seek. 'The triple loop' is not just a generative concept. It is either a reliable basis on which to make profound judgements or not. And it is...

As we have both agreed before, it is -not the compromise- between empiricism, rationality, and existential angst. Rather, it is the harmonizing absolute inwhich all three can be made to cohere (at least in theory). There is simply no other theory that is 'whole' so to speak.

You said it yourself... Empiricism is not enough. And as an extreme, neither are the others. The only 'valid extreme' (which does not permit 'unbridled extremism') would incorporate 'the triune whole'. That is the essence of Holiness, and where we get our modern word 'whole'. It is balance, and to reiterate... balance is the absolute. And that is the 'true message' of the Bible and of Christ. We must be born of that Spririt in order to navigate 'the whole show'. it's not claiming omnipotence, but rather 'trusting the nature of omnipotence' to show us, 'the way'.

If you haven't already, and/or your're interested (if only for 'skeptical reflection') read C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity' and the chapters entitled 'Time and Beyond Time', as well as 'The Three Personal God'. You can find it for free online if you search a little...

I am tempted to say that your 'triple loop' is the essence of the Holy Spirit, though it raises some improper images would not in and of themsleves maintain theological prescision. God's wisdom (or His Holy Spirit) is not merely 'mind'. He (the Holy Spirit) is indivisibly part of the Godhead just as any one second dimension sqaure is one part of a cube. But I am overstating my case...

Beyond all of that I have one thng to add:

If the universe has a creator, and He did not show Himself -or to put it another way; manifest Himself... in the flesh as it were, could we really 'trust' (have faith) in His deity? It should not be suprising then, that the New testament apostles such as John and Paul, warned that anyone who denied the physical incarnation of God in Christ Jesus disavowed true faith and reason. And though you may not agree with the Biblical revelation of God, you at least should be aware of that they were expressing the same concept as you, only in a different way.

I don't intend to prove anything with that question or all of this, I only intend to show that not 'all faiths' fit the profile with which you seem to be easily prepaired to lump into the 'one loop' stereotype. The heavens gate cult yes, the materialists yes, the existentialists yes; the slowly but painfully maturing 'Christlike' and thoughtful Christian no (not that we are all maturing, thoughtful, or Christlike).

Perhaps you may want to take some time to turn your 'valid skepticism' on many of the 'loops' you've been taught by men, who appear to me, to be unworthy of 'trust' when carefully examined by all three dimensions of inquiry.

I'd say you have a dilemma Paul... and I can only tell you that I understand full well, the frustrating exhileration one experiences when he finds himself playing chess with God.

When I really think about it (from one point of view anyway) God the Holy Spirit is the 'sound mind within us' trying to kindle a fire that we both want, and don't want. What is a man to do?

When facing that question, I always reccommend the Gospel of John. It is profound.

btw, Happy new Year...