Week 8 - Beginning Howard's End

Anne Dalke's picture

Welcome back--to Bryn Mawr, to our ongoing discussion about the story of evolution, to the beginning of our discussion about the evolution of stories and, of course, to the end of Howard. And so (to get right to the point!): how, on first reading, does Forster's novel strike you? (I'm assuming this is a first reading for everyone...?) What do you most notice? What pleases and pulls you into the novel? What puts you off? What echoes of other stories do you hear in it? What else (experiential/material/textual) does it remind you of? How does it seem different, or unique, from anything else you know? Have I asked enough questions yet?

Anne

Anonymous's picture

what is the meaning of this paragraph?

If anyone could help I am trying to do a paragraph analysis on the 2nd paragraph in Chapter 12 of Howards End. It starts iwth "The last word- whatever it would be- had certainly not been said in Hilton churchyard." I'm not sure i'm understanding the meaning of that entire paragraph and how to do an analysis on it!! please help!!

Anonymous's picture

Im really confused. Im

Im really confused. Im studying Howards end at A2 level and my teacher said we would have problems with chapter five. What the heck is it on about? The beethoven scene, i really dont get the symbolism.
Goblins represent materialists? i honestly have no clue!
Please help me!!

I.W.'s picture

Breaking the Rules

I had serious problems getting into Howard’s End.  For me it has always been critical for me to identify with some aspect of a novel to really like it.  The only reason I actually read to the end of the novel was because I had to for this class.  Furthermore I couldn’t find any of the characters to be actually believable as human beings.  There was seemingly no reason for Mr. Wilcox to suddenly fall in love with Margaret, a women who is so completely unlike his wife who just died. Then Margaret suddenly changes from this totally self-sufficient woman who has radical ideas to this docile little housewife in a traditional old money household.  Characters have to have some sort of realistic motivation, but none of Forster’s do. 

         I can’t think of any books that remind me of Howard’s End.  I mean I have read other book written about the same time period, but nothing that reminds me of Forster’s style or lack there of.  While the themes were complex, I felt there was so much lacking in the actual writing of the novel that it just doesn’t matter what the book was actually about. 

         The one thing I did relate it to somewhat was contrasting it with the theory of evolution.  Forster displays a world so different from the one we have been learning about in class.  His world is fixed and solid with definite rules and boundaries.  I find that makes it even less believable for me because I know that is not the way the world works.  When people step outside of the boundaries bookshelves don’t fall and kill them, they go on living their lives.  Rules are made to be broken, a fact that Forster seems determine to ignore. 

J Shafagh's picture

What I thought...

What I thought when I first started reading Howard's End was that I hadn't read a novel in a really really long time, and that it was kind of nice to be able to get into the story and just enjoy it for what it was and not to feel like I had to make any specific sort of meaning out of it.  I didn't really know how I felt about it, and to be honest, even now, after finishing the book, I feel a little bit indifferent towards it.  I like the plot, and I think there were many themes and politicial/social implications relating to the time period in which it was written, but I still didn't see how it related to the class, and actually still to this day do not see how it relates to the class.  I guess we can see the evolution of this story in the context of biological evolution, but on the top of my head, I can think of a few other good books that may have been able to accomplish the same goal. 

kgins's picture

music..

I thought listening to the music in class and seeing our different reactions was interesting.  It's interesting that some of us saw colors, that some of us tried to form stories, or associate emotions, and some of us tried to do much more- from these auditory signals.  It's interesting to think about what it is- who we are, where we've come from- whatever it is that's influenced our minds to interpret music- or try to associate it- with certain things. I tried associating the music with emotions, or realms of emotion- either as sadder, calmer, or happier.  I wondered though, why I immediately wanted to do that- why I wanted to find logic, or order, or meaning, or whatever it is I was searching for, in that way.  Why couldn't I appreciate the music, just...as music? But.. in that case, would I only be appreciative of music as music when it makes me feel a certain way, in which case it wouldn't be the music I'm hearing, but the emotions/feelings it evokes? For that matter.. can anything be appreciated for what it really is, as opposed to our reactions/the way it makes us feel? We react to each other- we don't like everyone, but those we do interact with- we get something out of these interactions that make us want more, that make us continue.. they fill a certain niche, making us feel a certain way- maybe intrigue us, stimulate us, make us feel good, or some other way... maybe there's nothing we can appreciate for itself.. maybe everything is tied to the way it makes us feel.

marquisedemerteuil's picture

what does it mean to

what does it mean to appreciate music "just as music"? what *is* anything?

Katherine Redford's picture

Reactions to Anne's Group Discussion

In our group we talked (or tried to) about the literary cannon, and why certain novels were chosen over others to be included.  As I listened to the discussion, I realized I had no idea how we might choose what goes there, I just knew that some novels seemed to belong there, and some didn't.  To push one of Paul's analogies, I was sort of being a bad scientist about it, not really observing for myself what I thought might be the criteria.  I just read novels considered to be literary greats.  I agree with Megan's point that just because we can't relate, or it is not applicable to today, we can't automatically through it out, but, not being an English major, this is something that I need to find in a novel in order for it to grab my attention.  

But I am really not comfortable with deciding what belongs in the canon and what doesn't.  So really, I can observe/read all I want, and I don't think I could define any novel as great lit or bad lit, because it is incredibly subjective.  I think this is where I see a big difference between science and the humanities.  While I do agree that science is subjective, we do have "the crack", to me the humanities tend to be much more flexible.

 ..still thinking..

marquisedemerteuil's picture

what i enjoy about the canon

what i enjoy about the canon is being able to judge its works and decide what belongs there and what does not. i don't think any jane austen should be there and if anyone tries to put zadie smith in it, i'd fight! your comments on science and the humanities are so general that i do not understand what you are saying. is science less subjective than the humanities? i would argue no. and does that matter in some way? what is inflexible about science? that certain experiments glean certain results? that does not strike me as inflexible because there is a reason those experiments are being done and theconclusions scientists create from those results relate to their cultural conditioning. (see one of my many posts on the obesity myth!) results mean nothing in themselves.

rebeccafarber's picture

Our class discussion

Our class discussion prompted me to further examine the sisters' reactions to Beethoven's symphony.

When we listened to the clips of classical music and closed our eyes, people shared such different reactions and stories they had each built to the music. Yet we listened to the same notes at the same time in the same scenario; that is to say, there were no variables that separated our experiences making them more unique than any one other's. But for one classmate, she was featured in a parade while listening to one clip. For me, I was somewhere in a murky ocean, floating on a raft. Why these different responses - different stories to the same starting point?  Now I'm starting to get somewhere else.. suppose there is no reality that we can each perceive, no one story we can all reach and that's the reason our reactions are so different? Because the limit of how many stories can emerge from one source are infinite, boundless, making reality impossible to achieve. What have i done.. It seems I can't even read a novel without wondering why our interpretations of this novel are so different, yet the words are the same..

I completely agree with Jean’s post, however, that the novel has remnants of Wuthering Heights (I have not read Pride and Prejudice so I could not agree on that count). It is so interesting to note the parallels between the two stories, both thematically and even structurally. The developing loving between Margaret and Mr. Wilcox is a poignant aspect of the novel, proving that it is within ourselves that we relate to each other and not by external means (such as through money, status or wealth). 

SarahMalayaSniezek's picture

origins of social class

Social class plays a significant role in “Howard’s End”.  More specifically social class with respect to how one person views another.  Judgment is something often passed on one another in this book both directly and indirectly.  Forster, through the novel, depicts social class as the machine that runs life in pre WWI England.  Social class creates rules and boundaries as rigid as common law.  One example is Leonard Best’s constant effort to convincing himself and others that he is a “good” as the wealthy.  Another is the way in which the Wilcox’s, at times, negatively view the Schlegel's German decent.  

This aspect of the novel got me thinking about social class, and why we feel the need to classify others as “better” or “worse” than ourselves.  What is the evolutionary basis for this behavior?  Just figuring out where to begin addressing this question is a difficult task, but I do remember some related discussion from a previous course I took.  In the prior course, we studied the beginnings law and the reasons for it.  Many philosophers including Hegel and Weber, if I recall correctly, stated that humans need to have general expectations of others in order to make proper decisions.  In other words, in order to simplify our ability to make decisions, we must classify and use generalizations about the classes to make decisions.  Generalizations, although often wrong both practically and morally, are used to allow us to make easier decisions.  We do not have the ability to see the future, but we do have the ability to remember the past and use that to try to predict the future.  From that, ability stems our need to create social classes.  

But then why do some cultures put more weight on classifications than others?  Why, at the time of “Howard’s End” are people more concerned with class than now?  Does that mean that our need to generalize today is not as great as it was in pre WWI England, or do we use other things, besides class, to generalize?

hayley reed's picture

Who is Margaret?

As I continue to read in “Howard’s End” I find Henry and Margaret’s relationship more and more intriguing. Margaret does not love Mr. Wilcox yet, she often gives into him and will do whatever he wants for them. On one particular occasion, “She protested no more. Whether Henry was right or wrong, he was most kind, and she knew of no other standard by which to judge him. She must trust him absolutely.” Pg. 279 Her relationship with her husband is unique because while she does not love him she does value everything he says. In fact, she often gives into what Henry wants whether or not she agrees with his decision.

This particular aspect of her relationship struck me as strikingly different than the liberal persona she often portrays. Margaret has the gift to observe society and address what is wrong it. Throughout the novel, the readers are graced with Margaret’s social commentaries. The epitome of these comments is made when she is riding in a car with Charles and proceeds to jump out of the car while it is in emotion. She makes the observation that “Ladies sheltering behind men, men sheltering behind servants- the whole system’s wrong, and she must challenge it.” Pg. 213 Margaret astutely recognizes that the entire class system is delicately interwoven and is based on using one’ status against others. It is in situations like this one that I assume Margaret is different from the women in her time because she is willing to stick out of the norm and argue a position that is not popularly accepted. But, then all I have to do is look at Margaret’s relationship with her husband to realize that she is not the entirely liberal person she appears to be in public.

EB Ver Hoeve's picture

The Intellectual World

First of all, I am really enjoying Howard’s End.  Pride and Prejudice is my ultimate favorite book and the key elements that I connected to in it-such as witty humor, social commentary, and the role of women-are also becoming significant aspects in Howard’s End.  One of these themes, the role of women, has become particularly interesting to me.  In examining Margaret and Helen, one of the most obvious observations is their sophisticated understanding and appreciation for the arts and discourse.  Truthfully, I found the way Forster crafted the images and dialogues in the chapter about Beethoven’s Fifth to be beautifully constructed and also very telling about these two women.  It is clear from the beginning that the sisters have enough money that financial worries should never have to cross their minds.  And because of this, these women are able to enter into, explore, and conquer the world of intellectual knowledge.  And I will admit, many times I find myself thinking that if I ever had to debate literature with Margaret or Helen, I would be extremely intimidated.  They are so impressive in their perspectives of art, music, and literature. 

However, as the sisters come closer and closer to their deadline for a new house, we start to see that they have an extremely hard time trying to multitask their intellectual lives with the practicality of getting a new home.  In fact, as Margaret mentioned several times, she was often unable to pursue several leads on new homes because it would have been such a “sin” to miss the opera.  Therefore, it seems rather ironic when they criticize Mr. Bass for being unable to ever comprehend the intellectual world- because they themselves find it impossible to manage in the practical world.

The sisters’ acquired knowledge must therefore largely be attributed to the fact that they don’t have to clutter their minds with things like money.  However, I still think their ability to communicate intellectually with anyone they meet is a very impressive talent.  I would love to have tea with them.

~EB

tbarryfigu's picture

My Set Back

It seems I have forgotten how to read a novel. Or perhaps, I have forgotten how to enjoy a novel, and I can't help but feel it is the fault of this class. If meaning is truly meaningless (as it is the product of random chance) why do I rack my brain for substantial evidence of the contrary? I feel as though I have trained myself to question everything, because, of course, there is no truth. Why then, has my ability to experience literature been conflicted? Literature, and fictional novels in particular, were not necessarily intended to offer the reader fact in a time of questioning. There are no "truths" to be had (or are there? I suppose it depends on what you're looking for). With this in mind, I have surprised myself in my interpretation of Forster's intentions. I keep asking "what is he trying to convince me of?" and have, thus, lost the ability to "hear the golbins" as it were. This is a problem.

I envision Mrs. Wilcox walking across the green and imagine the magical elm tree at Howard's End, but cannot appreciate these visuals for their beautiful simplicity. Instead, I wonder why and how these details will be utilized to work towards the "goal" of this book. In my mind, there is a check list, and I am not surprised to find that almost every character has radiated out from a fixed position into the worlds of those they would not normally experience.

I am trying to predict the destination without taking time to notice the path along the way. It's sad. Perhaps Howard's End will act as my transition from the critical reading of scientists to the enlightened imaginations of dreamers...at least, I hope so. 

I continue to strive for meaning in art.

marquisedemerteuil's picture

meaning and exchange

nothing that we have said in class implies that there is no meaning in art. our conclusion is that meaning does not come from outside people; we create meanings, instead of following preexisting ones. there, of course, is a problem with this philosophy, because i think that deciding "oh, life is about creating your own meaning" is a way of avoiding larger questions. what is meaning in art the product of? well, often writers and readers have a similar understanding of literary devices, iconology, symbolism, that allows writers to transmit meaning to readers. we go to school basically to learn this code. so if this is true, meaning is not based on random chance at all, the author invents a meaning he feels is persuasive and gives it to readers. yet i also warn against trying to find the intention of the author when reading. we don't know the author, so this is impossible, and it just stifles more creative interpretations. i see it this way, the artist provides a text, and the readers find whatever meaning they see in it, and it's persuasive as long as they can prove it. when we come up with meaning, we don't usually think, "i'm making this up and i like it" that feels too random, we're creating something we think is persuasive in a larger realm, even if we don't believe meaning comes from the outside. the difficulty of meaning can come from, as our dear (and departed! noooo!) baudrillard would say, the impossibility of its exchange with anything else. if the world cannot be exchanged for anything, there can be no perfect representation of its reality in art, there is no double or exchange of earth that can be captured, and this is why art always feels inadequate to a degree, and this is why art does not seem to have meaning. meaning cannot be exchanged, it does not come from any identifiable source, so if we do not believe in it (religiously) it feels fake. it is fake, because it's as real as anything else.

there's your dose of postmodernism for the day. have a nice dinner. 

LS's picture

Connect Limitedly

In our discussion group on Thursday we talked about a lot!  However, what interested me the most was Forster’s “only connect.”  We talked for along time about what could be connected and what Forster intended.  We do see connections however, we see more than just interpersonal connections we see social class, world views, the arts, gender and all ages connect.  Is it possible that in order to see a “whole” view of the world one must connect all of these areas?  Perhaps that is what Margaret and Helen are doing when they start to interact with Leonard, they are trying to connect their experience with his and then with the outside world.  What struck me as interesting is the use of the word only; we are to “only connect.”  Is this connection that Forster is asking us to make meant to be limited?  Is this a restriction, and why must there be a restriction?

 

As I read further I began to see that connection in this sense is only a connection like connecting a cable there is no inherent meaning.  I wonder why this would be so.  After I finished this week’s reading it became a little clearer to me. At least in this setting, at this time, classes should only connect for a slight understating and nothing more.  We see Helen and Margaret go beyond connecting with Leonard and his wife and it ends in a horrible mess for the lower class, the Bast’s.  Perhaps the classes are meant to connect in a way that they see and know each others existence but to make no more connection than this, for the outcomes are negative.

 I do not think that the limitation of “only connect” applies to our lives to day, but perhaps.  In this class we are doing just that we are connecting the idea of literature and evolution however is there a restriction on this?  Are there limitation that we should be making or perhaps will these become clear further along in the course.

CT's picture

Perception and shame

A concept that struck me in Chapter 14 was the contrast between reality, appearance and perception. Since I am not as adept at literary analysis as others in the class (yes you Gaby), this drew my attention more than the ongoings of the plot.

Mr Bast is introduced through his card at the beginning of the chapter. The women form their opinions on what a clerk "in the employment of the Porphyrion Fire Insurance Company" should look like, and are thus diappointed to find him being "but a young man, colourless, toneless, who had already the mounful eyes above a drooping moustache that are so common in London."

The women had a dissonance between what they were expecting and what they were presented. What do you do in this instance? If we expect order and find choas, such with evolution, how do we accept such a process?

Of course, we can never truly perceive reality. Everything is interrpreted physically and mentally. However, we carry expectations that are shattered. I think, and I speak with no psychological authority on this, that there is a degree of humiliation and a spark of defensiveness.

The instance made me sympathize with those who disagree with my views (and yes, they are views and opinions. They are no more facts since I have internalized them) much more. We are, and never have been, rational beings. There may be an element of embarrassment and pride in current beliefs that is not easily shaken.

LF's picture

Although i may be able to

Although i may be able to relate to the English lifestyle more than one would had they not lived in England, I find it to be narrowminded to want to read only the familiar. This class is about evolving and part of evolving is experimenting is it not? Discovering new things in not only beneficial but rewarding, therefore we should try and read things we are not familiar with.

Shannon's picture

Synesthesia....Genetic?

I was recalling our in-class conversation on Tuesday about Howard's End. I took particular interest to the topic of Helen's reaction to listening to Beethoven's 5th Symphony in Ch. 5. Instead of focusing solely on the music, Helen creates a story full of goblins. When Anne mentioned the term "Synesthesia", I knew be interested in learning more regarding the concept.

Synesthesia is neurologically involuntary. "It is estimated that synesthesia may be as prevalant as 1 in 23 persons across its range of variants. It runs strongly in families, possibly inherited as an X-linked dominant trait. Synesthesia is also sometimes reported by individuals under the influence of psychedelic drugs, after a stroke, or as a consequence of blindness or deafness" (Wikipedia). It is a very memorable experience when it occurs.

Recent data suggests that grapheme → color, and days of the week → color variants are most common ( Day 2005; Simner et al. 2006). This I thought was very strange: there are common cases of Synesthesia being passed from father to daughter, mother to daughter, and mother to son... but never a recorded case of Father to son. HMMM. The condition can also skip a generation. The genes don't lead to specific types of synesthesia though, which means that the environment plays a role in its development. Nature and nurture turn psychedelic... what stories will we come up with next?

danYell's picture

questions and revisionism

Is there a difference between a novel that exposes to a certain way of life because it happens to be about that way of life, and a novel that exposes us to a certain way of life because the novelist intends for it to? Could Forster have predicted that he would be conveying British culture to American students in 2007? Was this part of his intention in writing the work? Does intention even matter? In biological evolution there is no intention, and direction arises out of selection. In writing, there is much intention on the part of the writer, but the interpretation (direction?) is left up to the reader.

Some of what he was doing in his references to classical literature and the contemporary British lifestyle was an effort to engage his contemporary reader in a world they would understand, full of inside jokes that they could get. It is difficult for us to understand all the references, but we have the added experience of figuring out what life was like during this time.

Then the question becomes is he is accurately portraying English life at this time? What sort of revision work is he doing? How is the author responsible for portraying reality accurately? I’m sure this question becomes trickier in an adaptation. What was Homer’s intention for the reading of Ulysses and Beethoven’s intention for his 5th symphony? Is Forster giving an accurate portrayal of a typical early 20th century British response to these works? Does it matter?

Danielle

azambetti's picture

Social Class Theme

After reading the fist hundred and fifty pages of Howards End, I can see where the book is headed.  This book represents a snapshot of time at a specific time and place for three distinct social classes.  The Wilcoxes are at the top, the Schlegels in the middle and Leonard Bast at the bottom of the social tiers in England.  The book tracks these characters as they interact within and among their respective social classes and the other classes.  This makes for a very intriguing story about how each class approaches such subjects as music, literature and larger issues, such as women’s suffrage.

Andrea Zambetti

Julia Smith's picture

Literary Cannon

In class today, I have to admit, it made me kind of angry to think about if Howards End was relevant enough to us to be in the literary cannon. I really enjoy Howards End as a story...and I don't feel like it has to be relevant to us in order to be appreciated. Can't we just appreciate it and analyze it for what it is? 

I guess this kind of relates to the discussions we had the first half of class about meaning, and how as humans we search for meaning in everything. Perhaps in trying to relate this book to ourselves and our modern culture we're searching for meaning that wasn't intended (by the author) to exist. Forster clearly wrote this novel for his time, and I think by trying to turn the novel into something that it's not is kind of..being disrespectful of that. I think the only way to really pay tribute to Howards End in a modern context would be to do what Zadie Smith did in On Beauty. (I haven't yet read On Beauty so I'm just assuming.) We can ask who Margaret and Helen would be if they were living today, but we can't legitimately ask if Margaret and Helen are close enough to ourselves to be relevant in modern times. 

Jenn Dodwell's picture

Howard's End and the Essence of Friendship

I think my favorite passage from Howard's End so far is:

"Brother and sister were not callous.  They spoke thus, partly because they desired to keep Chalkeley up to the mark--a healthy desire in its way--partly becuse they did not seem to them of supreme importance.  Or it may be as Helen supposed: they realized its importance, but were afraid of it.  Panic and emptiness, one could glance behind.  They were not callous, and they left the breakfast table with aching hearts."

 I especially love the line, "Or it may be as Helen supposed; they realized its importance but they were afraid of it."  I think it reinforces so beautifully how important it is to put our prejudices of people aside, and to try to see past the outer image that they project.  At the beginning of the story, the very rich Wilcoxes appear austere, intimidating, and unreachable to Helen and Margaret.  They project this air of indifference and shallowness, as a result of the high society culture in which they were brought up.  True, the Wilcoxes might feel more constrained in their expressions of their feelings, and therefore might be "afraid of it," because of the image of composure their social class demands that they project--but at the end of the day, just like the Schlegels, they are just people, who have the same feelings, desires, joys, and pains.  I see this as a significant moment of growth for Helen's character in the story.

 What also struck me about Howard's End is the traces of novels like Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice that found their way into this story.  The way the two houses, Howard's End and Wickham place are intimately tied to the two families and their stories, reminds me of the way in which the neat, tidy, grand and glorious Thrushcross Grange and the wild, ominous, haunting, and dark Wuthering Heights each mirror the lives and  personalities of the families that inhabit them. 

What also reminded me of Wuthering Heights was the way in which Mrs. Wilcox and Margaret slowly but surely come to love each other.  Here are these two people, who come from very different backgrounds, who find a soulmate in each other, despite the many constraints of their lives that would keep them apart were it not for their mutual desire to break free of these constraints.  It is the same exact situation with Heathcliff and Catherine.  Granted, although Heathcliff and Catherine originally come from the same house, Catherine's stay at the Lintons' transforms her into a representative of Thrushcross Grange for most of the story.  What is so poignant about both these stories of love and frienship is the way in which they prove that the human desire for companionship, understanding, and acceptance is truly stronger and deeper than any loyalty one could feel towards the images that his/her society promotes.

 Additionally, I thought it was interesting how, in Howard's end, the homes of the Schlegels and the Wilcoxes physically come together, when the Wilcoxes move right into the flat across from the Schlegels.  This phyisical coming together of the two homes is symbolic of the way in which Margaret and Mrs. Wilcox become good friends shortly after.

 Howard's end also reminded me of Pride and Prejudice, because of the way in which each of the main characters in Howard's End must eventually confront his/her prejudices and assumptions about the members of the other family in order to see what really lies beyond all the facades and assumptions which revolve around class. 

 Finally, I was struck by the way in which Howard's End is simultaneously a story that is very much about social class, and very much not about social class.  I have only read 100 pages in so far, but as I continue reading I will be interested to see how these two ideas play out/develop.

Elise Niemeyer's picture

Musings on Howards End

So, Howards End, a very interesting read.  This is the first time I have read the book, though I saw the movie years ago and remember next to nothing about the plot, so it’s a surprise all over again!  It’s funny though, the only image I can clearly recall from the movie is that of Mrs. Wilcox on page four, “Trail, trail, went her long dress over the sopping grass…”  Perhaps this is not such a coincidence though, because the description of Mrs. Wilcox exemplifies the style of the book for me, a kind of rich description and detail that gives the reader a sense of intimate knowledge of the situation.  Forester’s layered descriptive ability is mirrored in the complexity of many of the main themes, the delicate interplay between classes and sexes at the turn of the century.  I’m not sure how to tie all of this neatly into evolution, but I think after finishing the book, and especially after comparing it to Zadie Smith’s work, all will become clear.
Elise

Mariellyssa Wenk's picture

a poem

I wrote this poem over break for the literary contest but then I thought it might be of interest in this class. 

In seven days time

God made the heavens and the earth,

And left the relic

Just a flash of memory

Ensconced in the powerful tick

Of a clock.

Can we do nothing

But embellish our dreams,

Finding the truth

In a collaboration of life,

Death and rebirth?

But if an era is just a flash

Than insignificant we must be.

A clock caught up

On its time.

It's about feeling small and insignificant in such a large world. Knowing that you only have a certain amount of time here, but also questioning life after death, if not in the afterlife then at least through relations.

Shannon's picture

snap....snap....snap....snap.

snap....snap....snap....snap....snap....snap...snap.

(I like it!)