Perpetual, Shifting Jet Lag: Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Syndrome and Corollary Discharge
The United States (and much of the rest of the world) times work and school days in relation to the 24 hour solar day. In order to be awake at socially acceptable times for work and school, then, a person's internal clock, or circadian rhythm, must also conform to the 24-hour day. Common thinking holds that cycles may vary considerably within that 24 hour framework- hence "night owls" and "morning people"- but no one can completely diverge from the 24 hour pattern.
Or can they? Today, psychiatrists and sleep specialists have identified many types of circadian rhythm disturbances and disorders. Some are relatively mild- jet lag following travel across time zones, for instance- and generally remedy themselves within a few days <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#4">(4)</a> Others, however, are more debilitating. Possibly the most debilitating of all is non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome. People with this disorder, instead of having a 24-hour circadian rhythm, have an internal clock that runs in cycles of 25 hours or more, which may or may not begin in alignment with the 24-hour day. The result (if the condition is left untreated) is a pattern known as free-running, where a person's sleep cycle shifts a few hours later each day, never settling consistently; this pattern makes school, regularly scheduled work, and other daily routines generally taken for granted very difficult <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#4">(4)</a>. One source describes the pattern as "a state of perpetual, shifting jet lag" <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#3">(3)</a>
People could easily question why this disorder is often so devastating. Maybe the concepts of 24 hour days and sleep disorders are purely socially constructed, they might say; why not simply allow for more flexible work and school schedules to reflect a diversity of circadian rhythm patterns? But while such changes could certainly be useful to non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patients, long-established social patterns are incredibly hard to deconstruct. So long as most of the world adheres to the 24-hour clock, and so long as the non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patient needs to interact with others not on their sleep cycle, all the flexible scheduling in the world cannot solve the problem. I became especially interested in non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome after letting a friend of mine, who has the syndrome, stay with me on a night when he felt he was too impaired from sleeplessness to navigate public transit home. At roughly 8 PM, a time that should be early for most twenty-somethings, he could not walk twenty feet to my doorway without staggering. "I fail the sobriety test," he joked as he settled in for the night, but I thought his offhand remark was a striking analogy; he had consumed no alcohol that night, but an outside observer noting his age, his gait, and the time of night might automatically assume drunkenness rather than sleep deprivation.
It's also tempting to label non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome as an entirely biological disorder. Indeed, neurologists can now name many of the areas of the brain responsible for regulating circadian rhythms, and provide some explanations as to how those areas might be disrupted in those with non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome. The most important area in these explanations is a pair of small cell clusters in the hypothalamus known as the superchiasmatic nucleus, or SCN. Photoreceptors in the retina receive sensory input of light and transmit this input through the optic nerve to the SCN, which uses the light cues to entrain, or "set," the person's biological clock <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#2">(2)</a>. Since light comes and goes in 24 hour cycles as per the rotation of the Earth, it follows that human sleep-wake cycles, which depend on light cues, should also be roughly 24 hours long. The SCN also uses these light cues to regulate cycles of melatonin, a hormone produced in the pineal gland. In a person with normal sleep cycles, melatonin levels peak in the middle of the night, lowering throughout the day and rising as darkness begins again; shifting levels of melatonin are associated with overall shifts in sleep patterns <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#2">(2)</a>. Using this model, one could interpret non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome as an inability to process these light cues "normally," or as a reduced sensitivity to light cues. This inability or reduced sensitivit, then, encourages underproduction of melatonin at night and over-production during the day, resulting in unusually timed sleep cycles. However, there are undoubtedly institutions in society that encourage abnormal sleep patterns on some level, in addition to physical factors like melatonin problems. Consider American high schools which start at 7 or 7:30 in the morning, forcing students to wake up at 5 or 6. For much of the academic year, there is little natural light at 5 or 6 in the morning. This discrepancy between sensory input and alertness is hard enough on teenagers with normal circadian rhythms<a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#1">(1)</a>; for those with non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, it must be especially difficult to adjust to.
The best model for explaining non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome then, I believe, is one based on the principle of corollary discharge. Corollary discharge, as we discussed in class, is a mechanism that allows humans to distinguish between internal and external sensorimotor input; discrepancies between sensory and motor inputs lead to various forms of discomfort. Explaining non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome in terms of corollary discharge problems emphasizes the complex relationships between biological and societal factors in the disorder. On one level, the discrepancy between non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome sufferers' internal melatonin levels and outside light cues surely plays a role in creating their irregular sleep patterns. This biological explanation also explains why blind people tend to have non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome at far higher rates than sighted people; since they take in no light through the retina, the SCN cannot register light cues, which in turn inhibits its ability to regulate the pineal gland's melatonin release cycles <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#3">(3)</a>. But institutions with rigid, early start times, like some jobs or schools, also create corollary discharge problems, since they force people to be awake at times when light cues and melatonin cycles would otherwise indicate the need for sleep <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#1">(1)</a>. This discharge explains why shift workers, who may alternate between very early and very late work hours, often have disrupted sleep patterns (although they will rarely have true non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome, which is a very rare condition.)
Non-24-hour sleep wake syndrome cannot be cured, only controlled. It's interesting to note, though, that common methods of controlling the condition attack both the biological and the social underpinnings. To regulate internal circadian rhythms, non-24-hour sleep-wake syndrome patients can take melatonin supplements before bed, bringing their nighttime melatonin levels up to "normal" and, hopefully, encouraging sleep at socially acceptable hours. In addition, sighted patients may use light therapy: exposure to a bright, full-spectrum light early in the day, in an attempt to mimic the bright light of the afternoon hours when the person might naturally wake up <a href="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/#4">(4)</a>. But social factors, like career choice, can also help in the management of the disorder; having a job where one can work from home and choose one's own hours makes the erratic sleep schedule a bit less problematic.
This disorder is a perfect illustration of why it is problematic to claim that disabilities are entirely biologically based or entirely socially constructed. Claiming biological basis alone completely ignores the fact that institutions like high school may aggravate existing disorders. But claiming only social construction leaves little room for interventions based in biology, such as attempts to alter melatonin cycles in non-24-hour sleep-wake patients; while fighting to change the social bases of the disorder is certainly admirable, there's no denying that it cannot produce the immediate effects of melatonin or light therapy. Balance between these two aspects of the disorder seems to be the key; hopefully, medical professionals and social scientists working together can help to shed more light on this condition, as it were.
Web Sources
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=2568
2. "Information About Sleep."
http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih3/sleep/guide/info-sleep.htm
3. "Pathophysiology and Treatment of Circadian Rhythm Sleep Disorders"
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/465494_30
4. Sleep Disorder Primer
http://health.discovery.com/centers/sleepdreams/sleepdisorders/sleepdisorders.html#3
Comments
Non-24 Sleep
All my life I've always had trouble sleeping, always being told I 'Sleep too much' or 'I'm lazy' and wa often late for school while unable to sleep a night.
It was only over the past 6 years that I started losing an hour of sleep each day (fallin asleep at 11pm one night, then unable to sleep until 1am). Along with the lack of sleep I was becoming more irritable and often skipped on things like basic hygiene since I was often too tired to care much about anything (even losing lots of weight due to constantly being up for days on end.
Doctor's tried prescribing me sleep-aids; Melatonin being one, and nothing worked. Often I was getting more irritable and still not getting any sleep. 6 years and 2 doctors later, I find out what is wrong with me.
After decades of struggle
After decades of struggle with N24 (see my other posts on this page) I've started experimenting with polyphasic sleep, nothing to report yet but it might help other people so please search up the term "polyphasic sleep" - Steve Pavlina, and a blogger called Puredoxyk have some interesting web pages on the topic.
The theory is you bust out of the need for one big sleep session (wikipedia's article on "segmented sleep" is worth reading to see how this is a post-industrial era invention and NOT natural) and then the new work being done - by educated bloggers who are checking with their doctors - is about how to optimise sleeping so that you need less, and offers greater possibilities of controlling sleep onset times & duration. It still requires work and some sleep dep along the transition, but most of us have to deal with those anyway!
I'm not alone
Wow I can't believe how many of us their are, I have N24 too. I self diagnosed and had to go to 2 different sleep specicalists before I got it confirmed, the first one said the sighted couldn't have N24 and I knew different and that she was an idiot nurse practitioner. Now I keep a sleep journal every day so when I get my day in court I can finally get disability. I am completely unable to work since my skill set isn't in computers. I really feel we need to get N24 on the "blue book" list of disabilities. It's not easy to live like this. Having money to live on would at least keep us from being complete mooches on our loved ones.
My son has this.
Yes, my son has this. Fortunately, he is a gifted programmer working in the computer games industry, an often permissive industry. However, he'd probably be unemployed of he weren't exceptionally good at what he does. He goes into job interviews with this as the first thing he tells them, followed by, " if you can't work this way, there's no point in continuing the interview." I can't imagine how he'd make a living if it weren't that he's in high demand - he never finished high school, never mind college. My sympathies to everyone with this disorder. Have hope: he's also just met a wonderful girl who copes with this (they eat a lot of meals together, but it's often breakfast for her and dinner for him, and vice-versa) so don't give up hope. He coped by refusing to fit in and demanding that the world adjust to him, and so far, it has. So there's at least one success story with non-24.
I am 100% certain I have been
I am 100% certain I have been suffering from delayed sleep phase syndrome for most, if not all, of my life. Now after reading this (among other bits of information on the subject) I think in the last few years I am now suffering from this.
All through school I would not be able to sleep until 3-4am, would catch 2-3 hours of sleep before school, and then spend most of my evenings asleep. Both my grades and my social life suffered due to this. I graduated, held down a few jobs - mostly at call centers - which due to the afternoon-evening work schedules I managed to handle reasonably well with my late schedule, staying awake all night after work and going to bed to wake shortly before I had to be in the next day.
Then I needed to go on disability because of various psychological conditions that have been worsening in some ways over the years, a panic disorder leading to agoraphobia, and in the five years since I've had my two children I'll go months between seeing any natural sunlight as I avoid the outside world.
The last few years I've noticed my cycles changing, shifting all over the place. I can force myself into a normal pattern for a few days, sometimes a week at a time, before it no longer works and I'm back to catching sleep whenever I can, sometimes being awake 36+ hours before sleeping for 12-14. It wasn't until I read all this that I noticed that I'll get tired later than the night previous and it will shift like that, and tied it to anything other than just the regular insomnia I thought I had. I think I will need to start keeping a log so I can monitor exactly when I'm sleeping and for how long.
Thankfully I have a husband who is able to stay off work to take care of all of us, otherwise I don't know how I'd cope.
Blue-light blocking glasses working for me!
I'm pretty excited about this, because being non-24 has plagued me my whole life - I recently bought some blue-light blocking glasses (designed for cyclists and skiers, you can get them at all price ranges, from a few dollars to very expensive, e-Bay's good) and started wearing them from 3 hours before when I wanted to sleep - not a miracle cure but they're definitely helping me regulate a lot better, and for the price plus lack of side-effects I wanted to share because this page is very popular. I've combined them with having a very bright 100watt table lamp on a timer, set to light up an hour before my alarm goes off - much cheaper than the speciality light-therapy lamps!
Btw, I'd already done lengthy trials of having no artificial light, no caffeine, no computer/TV etc for hours before my planned bedtime (not to mention the usual "sleep hygiene" malarkey) and they all had no measurable benefit, and yet for some reason these glasses work - probably because I can still go about normal activities like cooking, watching a movie or sending the odd e-mail, and yet not have blue light telling my brain to stay wide awake.
I did find the restrictions before from limiting artificial light frustrating, which was counter-productive to a good night's sleep in itself and didn't feel like something I could live with for the rest of my life. So, based on that experience I highly recommend anyone who's non-24 investing in a pair (just make sure they cover your eyes and don't let any normal light in) and seeing how they work for you: they've given me new hope, to be honest.
I have it too :( I'm 18 and
I have it too :(
I'm 18 and I've just finished school. Used to be a straight A student until around two years ago when I'd be sleepy in class more often than not. But I did manage somehow and graduated with okay grades. Taking a year off from studies right now and doing nothing at home so very happy but I dunno how it'll be like next year when I'll (hopefully) be going to college :(
How I Cope
At first I thought I was simply a nightowl. Then I found out about DSPS. Later, I realized it was N-24 I'd been struggling with for my entire life! I am on a 25 hour schedule which is really torture when you're trying to live in "the real world" as a single mother. I'll spare you the details of my struggle and get right to my solution. I got work as a "cam model" or "cam girl" about 10 years ago and it changed my life forever. Feel free to write to me if you are a female and interested in pursuing this line of work. I make my own hours and free-run all the time. Life is so much better! And you can literally work as much or little as you want and most importantly, I can work any hours I choose. I feel healthier and less tired when I free run as as for it being hard to wake up at 9pm, 10pm, 11pm, or midnight, well that's only for about a week out of the month and I cope by enjoying the sunrise and doing errands as early as possible.
You can also add me on Yahoo messenger but please send a note to let me know you're a fellow N-24 sufferer.
So scared because this is me
So scared because this is me and so sad. I was not always like this. It started in mid to late 20's and now I'm 35 so this has been going on almost 10 years. I think at first I had delayed sleep phase syndrome and now it is Non 24 hour. I sleep two hours later and later and then I will sleep all day 9 am to 5 pm. It's awful because I am a mom. I am not sure how I've managed picking up my kids from school and forcing myself to wake up if I have been asleep for an hour or two and help them get ready for school as well. It's been really hard. It has also been very hard to hold a job, just like everyone else has explained. I work from home and barely make any money but thankfully I have a husband who sleeps normally and can provide for the household. It has made life hard. Sometimes I can't make it to dental appointments or events or sometimes I try to make appointments based on estimates of when I may or may not be asleep based on my previous week's sleeping patterns. I don't make friends and keep them either because I'm afraid of judgement on all of my problems. The sleep affects my work and going places and it just sucks. I am lucky I have been able to manage my children and my husband with this sleep disorder but it has been very hard. I wish things would get better for all of us. I wish there were a cure. It is quite debilitating
Some help perhaps?
Hi Y’all,
I’m big on science so have read extensively on the subject of the circadian rhythm, its regulation and entrainment. Below are a few pointers I’ve picked up. Some people may be able to arrest the cycle with this information if it is used in a disciplined manner. For others like me, it may have very little effect.
1. The light frequency necessary to entrain a “normal” circadian rhythm has to be of a high intensity and of the blue end of the spectrum, specifically of wavelengths between 420 nm and 490 nm. Marine lighting specifically for Reef Aquaria and sold under the descriptor “T4 actinic” is ideal for this purpose.
2. Intense light in the morning shortens the cycle (which we all need to do) whereas intense light in the afternoon lengthens the cycle (undesirable for us).
3. Red light cannot affect the cycle so red light can be used to illuminate the house exclusively after dark. You’ll just have to put up with the gossip. Any short bursts of whiter light can upset the rhythm so be strict.
4. Melatonin can be feely bought over the counter at most pharmacies. WARNING, for some people like me it causes depression. A dose of around 3mg or less can be taken an hour before expected sleep initiation.
5. The above can be used once sleep has advanced to a “normal” time, for example 10pm. I would then set an alarm for 6am. Upon awakening I would illuminate the eyes from above, so that intense light enters the eyes for thirty minutes to an hour. I would suggest that the lamp be positioned a distance of approximately three foot from the person’s head. I’ve tried this with a twin T4 actinic light source and found it to be harmless. It has also been suggested that the light source is lit thirty minutes before the alarm sounds so that one can awaken naturally.
6. It has also been suggested that serotonin is boosted in the early afternoon by using 5’HTH. A suggested dose of around 25mg gradually increased to 50mg over a week. WARNING, please don’t take 5’HTH if you are currently on any anti depressants or drugs that increase serotonin levels. It can be rather dangerous.
7. I’m a big believer in amino acid therapies. They can really help to enhance mood if one has an imbalance or deficiency. Some amino acids are precursors to neuro transmitters that mediate circadian rhythm. Amino acids are naturally found in proteins so are not unusual chemicals that the body is not accustomed to. L-Tryptophan deficiency does cause sleep abnormalities, but it is rare in this day-and-age. Tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin. I would avoid using 5’HTH and L-Tryptophan simultaneously. L-Taurine can be used to stabilise excitatory neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine so helps keep a person calm. L-tyrosine is a precursor to norepinephrine and is also implicated in circadian rhythm mediation. I would take 500mg L-Taurine and 500mg L-tyrosine upon awakening, 500mg of L-Tryptophan OR the dose described in (6.) of 5’HTH in the early afternoon and melatonin around an hour before bed.
Hope this helps. I understand that there are others who are well versed in science who suffer from this very debilitating illness. I also understand that many of you will have seen specialists in this field. The above information is by no means meant to be patronising to anyone. Neither can I take responsibility for any problems people may encounter from using the above information but I wouldn’t suggest you to do something I haven’t tried myself. However, if anyone feels they can contribute to this thread or even correct my information, please feel free to do so. The more information we have, the more likely we are to help those who can benefit form information of this type.
Chris
It's good to share!
Thanks for bringing all those tips up. Sadly they didn't really work for me (even at quite high doses above the recommended, after a few days) BUT I agree that a science-based approach is sorely needed, as is sharing any ideas or research on this. Tbis page is one of the top links for non-24 hour and we need to keep talking to each other.
I'm NOW experimenting with this bi-phasic sleep pattern thing, search up "A. Roger Ekirch sleep we have lost" for more info on this, I have NO idea if it will work, but the minute my sleep-phase hits 10pm I'm going to kick into this and see it it fixes stuff. I'm 40 and have had N24 since I was tiny, and it's caused major problems in my life, so I'm VERY motivated to somehow find a key! (Or, get it accepted - I go both ways on this, but I refuse to give up, anyway! By which I mean, I refuse to live with regular sleep deprivation, which is a known form of torture, ffs....) I'll post up in a while if it helps, only as one person's experience obviously, but it might be useful to check out, and I'm in a situation at the moment where I can do that without it messing with my work. I'll keep you posted!
I've commented on here
I've commented on here before: I recently tried taking a legal herbal source of melatonin called asphalia (the regular kind isn't available OTC in the UK) and it totally failed to knock me out, even at way above the recommended dosages, BUT it did make my subsequent sleep periods longer by several hours.
This led me to wonder if my problem, and perhaps that of other people with true N24, is caused by our brains being less sensitive to our own natural melatonin?
If so, that means we'd be wide awake until our brain produced enough of it to really knock us out, instead of feeling pleasantly sleepy after 15 hours like most folk, and it would also explain why I've had some epic 20+ hour sleep periods - my brain had produced so MUCH melatonin, it completely knocked me out for longer than would be normal to someone else.
And I can't seem to regulate my cycle, despite having tried all kinds of day lengths, which would also seem to indicate that somehow in my case a connection is not being made between melatonin release and tiredness.
I'm no doctor and this is only a tentative theory at the mo, I'm not trying to claim it's a definite cause, so I welcome any comments from people regarding this idea.
I have it
I was diagnosed about a year ago. It was a factor in me quitting university. At the moment I am on a disability pension but I am working on becoming a freelance writer.
Non-24 hr sleep wake disorder
Hi David,
Are you in Australia? Were you granted a disability pension because of N24? If so what "medical evidence " did you require? I am asking because my 16 yr old son has just been diagnosed with N24. He was recently granted a Disability pension because of Aspergers syndrome and OCD...but I want some type of Medical letter that Centrelink will accept when we try to explain that he may not be able to join the workforce. Any advice from anyone would be helpful.
Successful student...but for how much longer
I am 18 years old and I was diagnosed with this disorder a year ago. I used to deal with delayed sleep phase syndrome since I was in elementary school. It wasn't until last year that it developed into non-24. I'm a straight A student and I'm constantly sleep deprived because I'm trying to combat my sleep schedule. I have no friends or social networks because I'm not frequently awake the same time everyone else is. No one else seems to understand the chaos I'm going through. This is the first forum I've found on the sleep disorder. I have come very close to committing suicide. It seems like most of you with non-24 don't seem to maintain success. It doesn't look like I'm going to be able to live on a set schedule for much longer and if my grades go downhill, all is lost. I am anti-medicine and I'm terrible at maintaining any routine, so I'm going to continue to refuse treatment. Do any of you with non-24 have a successful social life?
I get how you feel. I was
I get how you feel. I was able to maintain my grades even though I was half asleep, I was a good student and spent the time I should have been sleeping doing homework and studying. I live in australia, though I've been able to maintain socializing through online games. I'm awake when people in america and europe wake. If you're in america I suggest finding an online game with a mainly european player base. It insures someone will be up when you are. RPG's are good games as even if you don't like the game play you can still sit around and talk to people. Good luck and remember there's always people who know what you're going through.
Good article
This article is the best I have seen regarding Non24. I certainly have this disorder and when I explain it to the doctors they don't register. I have spoken to my General practitioner about it on several occasions and he has no idea about it due to it being rare and has not had any other patients suffering from it. I also see a psychiatrist as well who insists that I have bi-polar disorder which I'm prescribed anti-psychotics and a mood stabilizer for that do not help one bit in regards to non24. If I didn't have non24 I wouldn't have symptoms that indicate bi-polar.
There is not much I can say about non24 that hasn't already been mentioned in your comments. I'm sympathetic to all you that have it, the trouble that you have because of it is the trouble I experience. What I would like to hear in further comments is people that have come up with a solution/cure for non24, so I'll stay tuned.
i've had this since i was like 20
dont know what caused it but i got it at around 20.
it made me barely graduate college and hold on to my job.
however i was unusually good at my stuff so i could never really be fired (engineer).
i started a business that involved travel to china where the time zones shifted... and come back to america. So this did not help the situation.
Anyway i'm a successful millionaire and i use my late nights to have fun like going to bars and clubs whatever. Then when im waking up early i use those times to do all the stuff i need to get done during the day.
Anyway i'm happy with it and i know a guy who had it to othat was good friends with me who is now literally a billionaire. So just roll with it. I'm gonna try the light therapy.. i didnt even realize this was a disorder til i read this website.
Finally diagnosed officially
I had been trying to get my GP to send me for sleep testing for well over five years with no success. He had diagnosed me with everything including bipolar disorder until I finally went to a psychologist armed with the information and a rough sleep log (I go to sleep four hours later every day on average) and was finally sent almost immediately for sleep testing. The sleep specialist took note of my rough sleep log and the fact that I had been suffering from the disorder since I was about 13 years old and put me on melatonin (didn't work but it was a good try and had me black out all of my bedroom windows so I could get some sleep during my daytime sleep periods. It is wonderful to actually have the disorder recognized and have people working to help me to manage the disorder after thirty years of fighting it on my own. I was curious if any of you also experience "stalling" every few weeks where a 24 hour clock is manageable for a few days to a week before going back to non-24/free-running.
Hi there This describes me.
Hi there
This describes me. Every few weeks I will actually be in bed by 9 pm and wake up at like 5 or 6 am like most people. I will become much happier and feel so much better but then a week or two later I am back to sleeping a couple of hours later little by little. Sometimes I will sleep from 2 am to 10 am or 4 am to noon and then finally sometimes even 9 am to 5 pm. It is so debilitating. My happiness is always short lived. People who sleep normally are so unbelievably lucky.
Yes, I have that, and it will
Yes, I have that, and it will even run backwards occasionally, so I start waking earlier, effectively having a 20 or 22 hour cycle. Non-24 really is non-24 for me, not just a slightly longer cycle.
I empathize
I am saddened to hear that others have this disorder. I read all of the comments, and could relate to everything said. I'm surprised at the minimal frustration commentors have thrown here, as i will sometimes cry. And nothing else can beat me down like this disorder.
24 yr old dood in VA
So there IS a name for this!
This simply MUST be what I have. Everything written in the article and most of the comments made pertains precisely to my situation. Since 1990 or thereabouts I've been really out of sync with everyone else's sleeping patterns. Of course I got the "You're lazy," and "Just go to bed earlier," advice all to no avail. I'm here now at 5:15 AM (in Australia) after attempting to go to sleep at 12 midnight to be ready for more schooling tomorrow (today, rather) but I can't sleep at all to try to get back into a rhythm that's conducive to attending. I know that if I go on no sleep I'll punch out of consciousness at about 9 o'clock which is when classes start. How does one even address this with their general practitioner (doctor)? It's a--for lack of a better term--'kooky' disorder.
N-24
I am 66 and have been sleeping between 10 and 12 hours a night all my life. Since the time does not change 3 hours each time, would I still qualify as having N-24?
you can sleep 10-12 hours a
you can sleep 10-12 hours a night without it being non-24 hour sleep-wake syndrome. It doesn't mean you don't have it but it also doesn't mean you do. Try keeping a sleep diary to figure out how long your days are.
count me in too
well, since almost all post have also started this way I guess I should too
so Im a non 24 as well, I seem to be running on a 26-28 hour days. I must agree that people who dont know, accept or believe in this as real are pretty hurtful when they label you as lazy when you wake up late, or crazy when you wake up ta 4 in the morning. Im 19 now, since around 12 I started to notice this, although I didnt fully realize my sleep schedule kept moving forward a couple of hours ahead each day until a couple years back. the whole you can put your mind to it is annoying, the try to get to bed earlier is even worse, but throughout living with this Ive learned to simply filter the schpetics and critics out whenever possible, if possible I would try to live with the condition I would actually prefer it, but right now I really cant, Im 19 and thanks to this I havnt finished high school, I get to classes at one point and then I cant get up, usually two months in Ive already been failed for missing too many classes, and I cant get my GED till Im 21. So I need to work something out.
any suggestions would be welcome, though at this point all I can really see as plausible is taking melatonin or just stick to the bear it technique which would mean doing anything to get to class in time, probably fall asleep there but get the attendance, and study on my own for the exams mostly finals. soooo... either I drug myself, or I get self-home-schooled and lose 8 hours a day attending classes which I wouldnt be able to follow do to sleep deprivation..... GREAT
I'm in the same boat as you :/
I have non-24 and it is the cause to me not finishing high school either. I got mine from a car accident I got in when I was in 3rd grade. I didn't start seeing significant signs of a sleep disorder until 7th grade though (I missed a lot of school earlier but since it was grade school and such they always let it slide). I'm supposed to be in 12th grade right now but due to the inability to keep a normal sleep cycle I've pretty much given up on that. I even tried home school which worked out fine for a little while until my sleep cycle decided morning was night. Anyways I'm almost 18 and would love to talk to other people about this. If you or anyone else would like to talk about this you can email me
28-hour day?
Has anyone tried a 28-hour day? I figured out that 24*7=168, as does 28*6, so if you are self-employed or have a flexible work schedule, you could theoretically follow a schedule of six 28-hour days. After figuring this out, I looked it up on the Internet and found that it is an actual known theory of time management that has also been researched in scientific sleep studies. Just wondering whether anyone with Non-24 has found this to be a workable solution... I've been trying bright light therapy for about a week, and it does seem to be helping somewhat, but I want to have a backup plan that doesn't involve medication in case this doesn't work.
I tried running everything
I tried running everything from 25 to 33 hour weeks, planned them in spreadsheets so I'd know in advance which days gave me optimal daylight/business hours, but it just didn't work - my sleep/wake was as erratic as ever. I think some people have an extended cycle that's regular, some of us (me anyway) it just seems like our body clock is literally broken and won't respond to ANY regulation. I'm 39 and have been dealing with this all my life, and at no time have I been able to establish a regular cycle of any length.
That's an interesting theory
That's an interesting theory but your hours would still be moving forward 4 hours a day. So there would still be days where you would sleep all day and stay up all night. Which means you would be missing school, work, ect.
It depends on how you are
It depends on how you are able to ararnge your week. I came up with a 28-hour-day schedule where Friday and Saturday were dark and the 9-5 hours were fully available on Monday and Tuesday. Wednesday wake-up at 9am and Thursday wake-up at 1pm. It wouldn't work for high school, but it's pretty easy to fit a university schedule into those windows. Then I used chronotherapy to push my sleep window into the proper window for that schedule and was able to make doctor's appointments, classes, church, etc. regularly for the first time in years.
Good to finally put a name to the disorder
Self diagnosed at the moment but i'm pretty certain i have this disorder.
All through school i'd be arriving late for having to force myself up and on school holidays when left to my own devices i'd run a cycle. When i was 14 my friends noticed i had real bad sleeping patterns cause i'd be riding around at 6 or 7 in the morning and their parents would be asking me why am i up so early and i'd be like i haven't been to sleep yet. All through the longer christmas break holidays i'd run through full cycles and trying to correct the cycles (staying up till about 8 at night to get to sleep at a better time and wake up at a better time would make things worse)
I knew i had a problem when i was working nightfill at a supermarket and running through the cycles i'd be sleeping in and waking up late to go to a job that started at 7 at night!!! Yawning at work one time my boss asked me why i was so tired and i said it's because i'm trying to change my sleeping pattern again and he said again?? you might want to see why you have to change it all the time. (when my sleeping patterns get out of hand according to work/daylight times i'll attempt to change them by staying up untill a socially acceptable time to go to sleep)
Lately i always seem to be running through cycles and i know in about 3 weeks from now i'll be more awake during the day but at the moment i'm more awake at night which sucks as i have to miss out on activities during the day cause i'll be just too tired.
Doctors don't seem to diagnose this because it seems if it isn't insomnia you don't have a sleep disorder.
First off I think the reason
First off I think the reason why most doctors don't diagnose this is because it's an extremely rare disorder. Since they don't see it very often they probably forget it even exists.
Anyways I'm almost 18 (I will be in april 2010) and I have just self diagnosed myself with non-24 too. I think it would be really neat to talk to others with this for support and to share ideas of how to control it. If you would like to talk to someone about it you can email me
"This thread brings tears to my eyes",
...someone said earlier, and I understand this fully, because now I have tears in my eyes. My syndrome has been getting worse for the last few years, and this year has been exceptionally bad. I also suffer from personal sorrows right now, which can only worsen the situation; the anonymity rul prevents me from talking about them, though. There are times, even days, when I sleep better, when I sleep normally among normal people, when I have reasons to wake up early every morning, when life is good, but when these few - so few! - golden days are over, the same horrendous cycle begins again.
Towards the darkness again? Sumbody feeling sorrow and pity
NON 24 HR.
Some of you might find this interesting. I have had the disorder (26 to 28 hr. cycle) for over thirty years. I am a college graduate but have had over 70 jobs in my life. I found myself frequently unable to get out of bed and show up for work. Soon I would abandon the job because of embarrassment from my absenteeism. The desert is a two hr drive for me and I love the desert in the cooler winter months. I am retired and last fall I bought a van so I could sleep in it when I went to the desert.
OK, the interesting part. Over a three month period I was spending four consecutive days and nights a week camped out in the desert. After dark, I would limit any light to avoid advertising my position incase there were any bad guys out there (not being paranoid, just smart). I found myself getting up every morning a couple of hours after daybreak and finally going to sleep between midnight and one AM every day. This got to where I was getting up around seven AM every morning. The interesting thing is that this carried over to the three days I was spending at home each week. This was incredible. I had never experienced this voluntarily. I was able to get so much done. After three months the heat drove me away from the desert and with in a couple weeks I was back to "free running" and have stayed there. I believe the daily exposure to bright sunlight all day and no artificial light after dusk caused my radical experience. In two weeks it will be cool enough to camp in the desert. I am anxiously waiting to try it again and see what happens. I am also investigating light treatment and Melatonin etc. In closing, last night I discovered my diagnosis that has confused me and doctors all my life. I found it in a book "Body clock, guide to better health" which led me to research circadian rhythm sleep disorder. I too have experienced the total look of unbelief from family and friends when I have tried to explain myself and the deep loss of self respect and the respect of others. If the same thing happens on the desert again, I may move out there.
Would you please let me know
Would you please let me know how everything works out for you? I'm looking for anything that can help me live a normal life, as I believe everyone with this disorder is. You can email me
P.S. If you have any other advice I would love to hear it.
25 hours a day
I'm 29/male. I noticed my irregular sleep cycles years ago, but this year I looked it up in the internet and found out I'm non-24. I started to log the times I wake up and go to sleep for weeks, and confirmed they shift daily.
I don't have too much problem with this because I'm self employed and work on deadlines, but it's hard to fit in socially, and also it's depressing and frustrating to wake up in the middle of the night or when people are going to sleep.
I think I may have this...
I'm 15 and as long as I can remember I have never had a regular sleep schedule. It really interferes with my life. It is so hard to wake up and go to school when you have only had a couple hours of sleep,and I end up ditching my friends all the time because I'm ASLEEP, how lame is that? I have tried so many times to regulate my sleeping patterns but I can't keep them normal for more than a couple days. I told my parents that I think I having a sleeping disorder, but I don't think they believe me.
non-24 hour
I understand where you are coming from. If I was you I'd start a sleep schedule. Start writing down what time you go to sleep and what time you get up, including naps. Print off the information on the disorder and show them your sleep schedule and see if they will take you to the doctor. Take the information and sleep schedule with you to the doctor. You can buy melontonin over the counter in the vitamin section at Walmart. Start taking it as directed about an hour before your desired sleep time.
But don't expect miracles. I've had sleep problems my entire life. At age 15 I asked my mom to take me to the doctor to get on sleep medicine. She was outraged and yelled at me. I made it through high school by taking naps when I got home and sleeping when I could. Once I graduated I was on a delayed sleep schedule for about 15 years. Now within the last year I have developed non-24 hour. It doesn't bother me as much as it does some of because I'm on disability due to bipolar disorder and ptsd. I've tried melontonin and it didn't work for me. I have a light box. It's really neat, but I can't say that it works. I've finally given in and allowed my body to sleep when it wants and it great. It doesn't bother me to be up at night because I'm extremely sensitive to the afternoon light. I have friends that are up early in the morning and friends that are up late at night, the early morning hours is my quiet time. But my dad in particular doesn't understand and thinks that I'm lazy and if I talk about it we get into fights about it, so I just don't bring it up.
Boy do I know what you mean.
Boy do I know what you mean. I feel totally lame whenever I ditch my friends to go to sleep. It sucks how no one understands what it's like to have this disorder unless they have it.
Circadian rhythm disorder
This thread brings tears to my eyes. No one truly understands how difficult it is living with this disorder until they experience it for themselves. Words like "lazy" and "worthless" and very painful and I'm sure everyone here knows how it feels to be called that, and don't even get me started about being told that "you could switch your schedule around if you put your mind to it." I've lived with this disorder since I was 14 (20 now) and have been cycling about three hours every single day of my life. I've had to have cycled around the clock at least 1000 times by now. I used to live on the North Shore of Hawaii when I was younger (Pupukea hiking, bodyboaridng, fishing, etc), but moved to Kansas (the hell with the military) and ended up staying in the house and learning how amazing the internet can be (depression is horrible). Kansas is really frickin' lame compared to Hawaii with all its bugs, snakes, and poison everywhere. I refused to go to school and developed delayed sleep phase syndrome as a result of staying up late and free-running (got G.E.D). I'm also a basement dweller and a schizoid (anxiety from childhood), so I didn't see very much light for like four years. One day, I started noticing that I was cycling around the clock and it hasn't changed since then. I've tried getting more sunlight during my daytime schedule (worked on a ranch, farmed plants, mowed grass, tilled ground, landscaped, etc) and don't know if I want to take drugs just to adjust myself to some socially constructed sleep cycle; however, nothing natural seems to work for me. I'm not too sure how to even go about getting the state to recognize this disorder, or if that's even possible since not many doctors seem to take this seriously (they look at you like you're crazy and need psychiatric help). Any helpful information about how to do this would be greatly appreciated (damn near have to beat them over the heads just to get them to listen to you). Thanks for posting this article and I hope everyone here finds the answers they are looking.
I have this. 25-26 hour
I have this.
25-26 hour cycle with a flactuating amplitude of 1-4 hours. . sleep patterns are all over the place. sometimes im able to keep them in check for a couple of days. I go to universtity and my GPA isn't axactly a flat 4.0..
It's so hard to make appointments and its even harder to keep a stable job.
It also takes a toll on my social life.
This condition sometimes causes me ocasional sleep deprivation and once in a while, oversleep.
It has fully blossomed in the recent few years; i cannot precisely establish how long ago. I'm 22 now.
From what I hear from my family I was born with a mild form of sleep disorder (wouldn't fall asleep as a baby according to what my care-takers determined was the norm) and it slowly developed (deteriorated) throughout the years.
I read that 25% of us (circadian rythem disorder cases) also suffer from psychiatric disorders. I may have a very mild form of OCD and recently suffered from a couple of panic attacks not directly related to the condition followed by very severe anxiety, which I have been able to overcome assisted by bezodiazepines. I also have mild ADHD, but that's the least of my problems and i tend to regard it as a personality trait.
I have seen a psychiatrist for my anxiety problems a few times but he doesn't seem to be able to do much for the non-24 - or anything else.
I think that the presence of a significant amount of us imposes a duty on society to accomodate us and grant us accessibility - as in time-flexible jobs - just like it grants accessibility to people with various physical disabilities
"I read that 25% of us
"I read that 25% of us (circadian rythem disorder cases) also suffer from psychiatric disorders."
Don't forget, that's the same percentage as in the general population.
I might have it too :(
I believe I have this too. I have for about two years now, been experiencing free running sleep. I thought I was responsible for it cause I never really tried too hard to wake up at the same time every single day, even though still I was in school.
I basically go to bed when I feel tired because I can not sleep if I'm not tired. And I happen to get tired about 1-2 hour later each day which is one of the reasons I believe I have this.
I sometime, due to lack of sleep or just because I'm tired, manage to fall asleep like 6 hours before I'm "supposed" to. But when I do that, I usually wake up in a couple of hours and then I can't go to sleep when I'm "supposed" to. Instead I get tired maybe 4-5 hours later than the day before and when I finally go to sleep "for real" I wake up about 4-5 hours later. Eventually, I go to sleep and wake up two times a day and it will revert to "normal" after a few days.
I've failed school a few times. At first I thought it was because of lack of motivation but when I read about this, I'm not too sure.
So what do you think? Am I affected by non-24? I wish I had a job and were motivated enough to actually try to wake up at the same time each day. But on the other hand. If a "normal" person goes to sleep only when he's tired and wakes up whenever he feels like it, would they still keep the 24-hour rhythm?
Sorry to say - I think you have it
You said:
"So what do you think? Am I affected by non-24?"
Yes, I think you have it, but please do not panic. It is possible to live with this syndrome. It will destroy many things in your life, especially if you are young. You cannot work at normal times, and might be hard to finish your studies.
I have suffered from this for a long time now.
You also say:
"I sometime, due to lack of sleep or just because I'm tired, manage to fall asleep like 6 hours before I'm "supposed" to. But when I do that, I usually wake up in a couple of hours and then I can't go to sleep when I'm "supposed" to."
This is very familiar to me too.
Unfortunately there is nothing else that I can do to support you than my sympathy. When I have to be awake the whole f*ing night, nothing to do, a total dysphoria, nothing in life that inspirates me, I sometimes listen to music - mostly some Ukrainian music about sails nowadays, but also some else string instruments. I know this is a cold comfort to you. There is no solution.
I belong to that group that has "related psychiatric problems". Sometimes I drink too much. When I drink a lot, I can sometimes get to sleep at normal times. But you know that it is no solution.
I'd like to see more comments here
One of the messages above is mine. I come here now and then, but it is disappointing to see that the conversation has ended and that there are no more comments.
Are we that rare? We sighted non-24's?
Could we found a society for hypernychthemerals? :) I am at your disposal.
Please, sister and brothers! Tell about your experiences and feelings.
It's good to know that there
It's good to know that there are others suffering the same thing I am. I'm only 14, and I'm already sick of hearing people say that I can 'change my schedule if I put my mind to it". I've been hearing it since I was 6, and it just doesn't work..
I'm currently homeschooled, and that's okay, thought I do miss being around other kids. To me, it's better than going through school on little to no sleep. (I left school at 8, and had already been having this 'problem' for 2-3 years) What's worse, is that my dad is considering putting me back in a public high school, and with my sleep pattern, I don't know if I could handle it.
It's absolutely awful in the area I live (everyone here acts like a clone), and when I told my new doctor that I new what was wrong with my sleep pattern, and told her what it was, she actually looked at me and asked me if I was making the whole thing up!
I am curious as to why it effects some of us, and not others... I seem to be the only person in the house to suffer with this, so no one else really understands what it's like. My dad doesn't like the fact that he doesn't get to spend time with me, because I get up as he goes to bed, or he gets home as I'm going to sleep. His girlfriend feels trapped because she doesn't have a job currently, and she doesn't want to wake me up when I'm asleep during the day. My mom seemed to be purely noctournal. It was rare for her to be awake during the day, but if she wanted to, she could switch schedules for weeks at a time, where the longest I've managed a semi-normal schedule is one week..
I have been saying this for
I have been saying this for years but like many who have posted here, explaining the notion of a 27 hour day to someone with a 'normal' sleep cycle, only invites a wealth of information on 'insomnia.' I try to explain that I have no trouble sleeping...then I get lost when attempting to describe being awake for 20 hours then sleeping for 7 to 8 hours, which leaves me refreshed and healthy - if I do this on a regular schedule. The next thing I usually hear is "well, if you just went to bed at the same time every night then..." or, "are you depressed?" or my favorite, "maybe you can take something for that, my shrink gave me..." I feel like I have met "my people" by reading this article and some of the replies. Does anyone know where I could find more information on this topic, such as medical studies/clinical information? Anyway, glad yet sad to know I am not alone in this. Good luck all.
The wikipedia entry on
The wikipedia entry on non-24 links to a couple different studies, you might want to check those out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_24-hour_sleep-wake_syndrome
Also, the talkaboutsleep.com message board has a long thread about non-24 that contains a lot of information about medication etc.
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-boards/viewtopic.php?t=9654
And finally the b-society website has a thread about DSPS and non-24.
http://www.b-society.org/node/113
join support
Hi all
I have had some problems in my life with sleep also. For non-24 I have heard that light restriction during the evening is more important than light therapy in the day. Come to experience project and join the group for dsps - we can share experiences, frustrations and solutions!
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