Why, I Say, White People Can't Dance (And, Yes, It has to Do with Race/Culture/Rhythm, Appreciation, & Respect)
Introduction
For me, saying white people can't dance has nothing to do with the typical answer that they don't have rhythm. I think the reason for it includes some parts of that, but also something more systemic or structural - race relations and learning cultural contexts.
Dancing is a language (in the way we think of, respond to and through language). Its movements are its words and its grammar is its rhythm. Don't get it twisted; rhythm and grammar are really one in the same. The dictionary defines rhythm as the procedural aspect of a beat or flow.[1] Procedural means the rules and regulations. There are rules and regulations for grammar (i.e. sentences have to have a subject and a verb: She cried.) Again dance is a language—means of expression. It probably is the most articulate form of body language. The analogy I am making here is that the body language we use when talking is also language, but it is what would be comparable to everyday speech. A dance move is comparable to a well-formed speech or lecture. Lastly, a dance performance is comparable to a paper, essay, poem, novel, book, etc.
By all of this, I mean to say that when I say white people can't dance or at least can't dance with black people, I mean that they have not only not picked up a certain set of rules and regulations associated with the body and the overall beat of (black) dance, but also—in many cases— have not picked up the overall flow—philosophy of (black) dance. (To go further understand what I mean by the flow—think of it like overall meaning or point or culture of dance. Refer to the diamond footnote on page 3 for more info.)
I think this phenomenon is linked, in part, to the Puritanical tradition and white culture's fundamental devaluing and mistrust of the knowledge gathered from and experienced through the body. This tradition comes into direct conflict with the African tradition and the traditions of the African Diaspora, where the knowledge from the body is not only valued just as much as the knowledge from the mind, but continually used, acknowledged, and sought after.
This fundamental difference of perspectives regarding the body has led to different philosophies and rules of engagement regarding dance and movement—in other words, black and white people talk differently and that leads to miscommunication, misunderstanding, and even disrespect.
I am aware that this essay grossly—indiscriminately—lumps all white people and all black people together without addressing the variations due to cultural perspectives, attitudes, or expressions. I understand that what I say about black and white people does not apply to all people or groups contained under that distinction. I know there are some white people, who may be black, culturally & phenotypically, as well as there are some blacks that may be white, culturally & phenotypically, as well as know there are innumerable categories that complicate and problematize what I say here. Because of the urgency of this essay and my limitations, I cannot do justice to all those stories. The hope is that everyone will step up to the plate and do justice to her story—for everyone's sake—because the world needs to know you are out there.
Dance in this essay is primarily referring to black American dance—black American culture and procedures (rules of engagement). While I talk about dance generally and my specific experience with dancing at a club, I mean to connect that conversation to American black and white race relations, generally, and my individual experiences (as a black American woman of Belizean and Southern American heritage) with white people, specifically.
This article gears towards showing a connection between the specific and the structural, the private and the political, the everyday and the yesterdays, the present and the History, stories and the metanarratives. It also gears towards giving everyone language in which to talk about dancing and race relations in America. It also gears towards airing out my frustration caused at the club that day—It is my healing (I had the hunch that it would be other people's healing as well). Once again, I apologize if this speaks too loudly for any one group or dance style.
This article is written for all people, but especially white people. By white, I am talking about white Americans and by black, I am referring black Americans. This essay intends not to forget about the white people who respect and value black culture and what it means as well as black people and what they mean.¨
It also does not intend to forget about the white people who not only respect and value all the things said in the paragraph above, but have learned to dance with, (not at), black people through acculturation (i.e. growing up with, not next to, black people), through learning about the history behind our vibration, and/or through somehow intrinsically picking up the rhythm. Thank you. You all, in the words of Jessie Jackson, keep hope alive. KEEP DOING THAT!
Now I want to let you all know why I am even writing this in the first place….
My friend Adaobi (black American woman of Nigerian heritage) texted me, last Thursday (5/10/07) saying that she is tired of doing physics and wanted to go dancing.
[Let's pause right here: the reason or shall I say need for dancing was for a release. So already it has another meaning than just simply dancing's sake or because she was bored (nothing is wrong with that by the way. I'm just making a distinction here). Adaobi wanted to dance for peace of mind. Okay, let's continue]
So, we go to Sister's, which is located in Philadelphia. Although Sister's is generally frequented by white people, Thursday nights were admission plus 8 drink tickets for $10. This coincidentally was the night that the most black people showed up.
We get up stairs to the dance floor area pumped and ready to move—release, heal, let go. Then I began to notice two groups that predominated this party: black people and white people. The dance floor's energy was not a united energy. It was choppy, disconcerted, and actually sort of hostile. Because of this, I watched and analyzed as I danced as well as got angry at the series of things that went on that night—most of that anger was felt towards and because of the white people at this party.
Now, knowing all of these interesting details, I hope I got you hooked on finishing this article. Below is a more detailed description of what happened last Thursday night. It is followed by a possible solution to this persistent problem of black and white people (not) dancing together.
Ethnography of Last Thursday Night at the Club
Description and Background
Walking up stairs to Sister's dance floor, I, cheesing and laughing, hear the booming music. The room was surrounded by mirrors on each wall, a bar was on the right and the DJ booth was diagonally from me. There were disco lights and mainly 70's disco, hip hop, and R&B playing. The sidelines were carpeted with a few stools against the mirrors. I noticed that black and white people predominated the party and actually, there were slightly more black people than white people. Black people were on the perimeter, on the carpet and near the mirror, and white people were in the middle of the dance floor.
Here, I see the weirdest thing I have ever seen at a club: The black people were dancing in the mirror. Now, I don't mean one of two, but about 15 black people in total were dancing in the mirror with themselves—completely disengaged from the dance floor and actually having a ball and cheering looking at themselves move. Behind their back was a dance floor filled with white people. It would be a stretch to say that the white people were dancing. I saw white people making out, falling on the floor, standing talking, and, I think, moving.
Now, like Adaobi and I said that night, I don't mind people having sex or falling on the dance floor, so long as they are doing it to the beat. Let me pause here and make another analogy to dance and language: Dancing to the beat means staying on topic in conversation. When people dance to a song, they are agreeing to engage with its beat—its topic. It is like going to a lecture about Spiderman. You expect everyone to be willing to talk about Spiderman if they entered the lecture hall. So that is what (black) people entering a dance hall expect. It gets annoying to talk to someone if you are focused on a topic and they are off-topic and tangential. It is even more annoying when the person doesn't refuse to stop talking. Replace talking with dancing, topic with beat, and off-topic with off-beat and read the previous sentence again.
The Abaobi and Me connection
Adaobi and I were doing exactly what we came to do. We were vibing. I had more of a hip hop expression while we were dancing (talking) and she had more of an African dance expression, but there would be many times when what we did looked eerily similar and even, we would begin doing the same movements together spontaneously.
We were smiling, jumping, stomping, waving our arms and heads, dipping, wining, and turning (on beat of course). We looked like we were celebrating something (or just really excited about what we were talking about or maybe just really excited to talk to one another). At times when I noticed that I did not look at her enough, (look engaged in conversation with her), I started to look at her and give her encouraging responses when she danced such as "Uh, oh” or "okay now.” (Think of shaking your head in affirmation when talking with someone). I did that to make sure she saw that I saw her and appreciated dancing with her. Sometimes, we would teach each other something. I would start doing a movement and she would do it with a question or hesitation in her step and then look at me for correction or confirmation, then I would do it again, then we would do it together. It took seconds for each of us to learn what each other was teaching because we had such a strong basis of communication before hand.
How Black People Responded to Us
Black people were responding to us as if they were wondering how did we find the energy to dance that way, in a space like this? Because our style was not typical even if it was also based in tradition, black people did not know how to enter our conversation. So instead, they looked at us and smiled. Some tried to do it too, I caught them in my periphery, but when I turned around, they automatically stopped, like they did not want me to see them attempting to learn our styles (language).
We could see black people smiling at us and pointing to other black people to come watch. Because our style was so different, they let us have our space to enjoy our language together, our culture together. They did not come and impose on the space, even though they liked what we did (how we sounded), because we were so into it. They wanted us to enjoy our time together. This was giving credence to the importance of giving people the space to enjoy their individuality.
Other black people created their own space regardless of what we were doing some where else while still giving us our space. We did the same to them. The powerful thing is that we all were moving and expressing ourselves to the same rhythm, the same beat—overall philosophy.
How White People Responded to Us
Adaobi and I did not want to dance in the mirror or the sidelines. We felt the dance floor was as much of our space as it was anyone else's. So we danced on the dance floor amidst the white people. The energy between us was clear. It was clear that we were in deep conversation with one another.
The white people completely seemed to disregard this. At the beginning, a couple of them came in our space range of dancing (our conversation). Bothered, Adaobi and I moved. I assumed, innocently, that they must have not noticed that we were deep in conversation. I also felt bothered because they were unaware that their presence limited us and forced us to find new space. However, I swear that white people kept doing this about 20 times that night. I thought the white people would see the pattern of my annoyance. But that was a hope in shallow well. That is when I noticed this behavior could not be a random act by the white people at this party. It must have been the result of their language, their culture, their misunderstanding and even their disregard of our language and culture. That is when I connected the event to the structural, the behavior to the culture, the symptom to the syndrome.
My awareness heightened and I began to pay attention to what was happening and what was being communicated at the club. Below is the list of all the things white people did that night that let me know that (1) white people and black people speak two different languages (when dancing) and (2) how white people and black people danced together (or next to each other) was representatives of how black people and white people interacted with (or to) one another.
The List of Things of Disrespectful Things White People Did to Adaobi and Me
Because the list is so long, feel free to skip around. Us refers to Adaobi and me. Enjoy, because I certainly did:
A) Say Excuse Me Cuz I Exist!
White people kept dancing or walking through us while we were dancing, without saying excuse me or acknowledging our presence. (The black people walked around us and even if they walked through us, they apologized for doing so and looked us in the eye).
B) I Will Not Tap Dance for You!
I stopped dancing because I got upset at what happened in A. I moved to the mirrors and the side lines staring blankly at the dance floor, the white dance floor. A white girl sitting at the bar tapped Adaobi and me and said that we are really great dancers and have amazing energy together.
I got excited because I felt that finally a white person gets it and acknowledges it. Then she followed up by saying, "Can you do it again. Go do it again. Go, go back on the dance floor.” She said this while simultaneously pushing us on our lower backs and still saying come on dance again. When we didn't move and looked at her like she was crazy, she went back down to sit with her black partner. I said to myself that I am not your puppet, I am not dancing for you. Then I realized once more, white people don't get it. She didn't even get that we left the dance floor because we were so offended by white people.
C) Just Cuz You Know the Words Does Not Mean You Know What I'm Saying or
If Ya Don't Know Wat's Cookin', Ge' Outta Da Kitchen!
We go back on the dance floor because we got so much energy from dancing with each other, we wanted to release one mo' ‘gain. That is when things heated up for me. The white people began to try to mimic our steps—our words. Then with excitement for learning this new word the white people tried to use it with one another. Fine, whatever, so long as they stay away from me with it because once the white people took it, it was no longer mine and I no longer wanted it. This is an example of what I mean:
Seeing this white girl take the step that I was doing, messing it up, and showing it to her friend like she invented it, is like a person taking an artifact because it was "cute” or "cool” that was originally used for blessing a child and putting it on a mantel to show all their friends. It no longer serves it original purpose, it no longer means the same thing in that new context. When a person, who views the artifact as sacred, sees its new use, they may feel gravely offended and even disown that artifact because it was now defiled.
D) I Don't Belong in a Museum or You Can't Box Me In!
A group of three white people started coming close to us, again, without being invited in the space—which happens through eye contact and acknowledgement. They start doing the only black dance movements (words) that they know—yes they knew the words but not the appropriate usage.
They literally started closing Adaobi into a box, which was interesting because it looked like Adaobi was dancing her black dance encased by white people and their stares. I already left that circle when they welcomed themselves in without waiting for our reply.
Adaobi finally broke out of that and found me on the sidelines, again, watching the dance floor. She taps me and says, "I know you were heated. I am really sorry.” We stared at the dance floor again, in disbelief.
E) Doing the Electric Slide: Black People Uniting to Takeover the Dance Floor
(But the White People Almost Foil Us Once More)
This was my favorite part of the night, well at least for a while.
Some of the black girls that were primarily dancing with themselves in the mirror started doing the electric slide—which is a really popular line dancing form for black people (we do it at every family reunion). Adaobi and I see that and we begin to join in, not from where we wanted to begin but from where the girls were currently. Very quickly, all the black people that were on the sidelines or in the mirror began to join. We quickly took over the entire dance floor.
Before this, you wouldn't have known that there were that many black people in the club. So, finally I am happy. Happy that black people stood up, as a unit and demanded that people, who couldn't get with the rhythm, back the fuck up (or people, who couldn't get with the lingo, shut up). Literally, if you didn't know it, you were likely to get pushed or stomped on by someone accidentally and even purposefully.
We finally got a chance to be as black and as loud as we wanted to be. It was very clear that we were saying something. We looked like a disco-army, sharing in one unified understanding or flow. Yes, we were all in one grammar but each of our sentences looked very different from one another. I was spinning my arms as I moved. Some one else was moving their shoulders a lot. Someone else would dip low and long. Some smoother cats would glide. Adaobi had a little African style to her electric slide.
Surprising almost all of the white people did not reenter the dance floor. Well at not least for a while. Then this white girl, who I remember was one of the white people trying to mimic me and Adaobi, tried to come in. Okay, fine, I could understand if she practiced before she came in or at least knew something about the step. Nope. She jumped right in stepping on people and getting in people's way. This is when the problem began.
There were three rows of the electric slide. This black girl was trying to form a fourth row, when the white girl jumped in. Because that white girl kept stepping and falling on her, she quit trying to make the fourth row and went back to standing on the side lines near the mirror. Finally, when the white girl realized that we were moving regardless of her and without the intention of trying to include her (no black person tried to show her what to do), she left the dance floor.
I asked my friend Kathy Huynh what would she have said to that girl. I said that the girl looked like she was appreciating what we were doing. Should I say that white people should not try join in with black people's conversations? How would anyone learn? Then Kathy brilliantly replied, "I would tell her, ‘Thank you for appreciating and wanting to genuinely learn what these black people are doing, but also give them the time and space to appreciate their own culture, for themselves.'” I will leave it at that, because I couldn't have phrased it better.
F) Grrrr!: Overt and Blatant Disrespect
As Adaobi and I are dancing, this white guy does not only bump into me, but stays there pressing the crevice of his back into my shoulder and arm. I was like, "He must not notice I am here.” So I pushed him off of me and said "Hey, watch it.” He looked at me surprised. I thought that meant that he was really didn't know that he was doing that and wanted to apologize, so I stood there waiting for a reply. He says nothing, humps my thigh three times, and pinches my butt. I screamed and said, "Get the fuck off me.” Then amongst me screaming and walking away from him, he runs up and humps Adaobi's butt three times and then runs back to his crowd of white people.
Farewell to Hell
When we left the club and got to the bus stop, I just started kicking and punching this poster on the bus stop of a large white man's face while also screaming. I turned to Adaobi, apologizing for my screaming, thinking she must think I am crazy. She replied with a saddened face, "No, Shayna, don't worry, I understand. Trust me, I understand.”
I kicked and punched to poster, because I felt helpless. I thought that there was nothing I could do to stop what happened at the club—what happens almost every time black and white people dance together—interact. The only thing I could come up with, is writing this article, hoping it would change some (white) person's perspective, hoping that white and black people could interact in a space without being offended by each other, and hoping it would help me heal from my hurt that night. Hoping—it seems like that is the only thing I ever do next to speaking up about my feelings. It hasn't changed much thus far. And to tell you the truth, I'm getting tired of hoping and discussing. I am tired of putting my self out there—(on the dance floor)
Maybe that is the same reason why all those other black people were on the sidelines and in the mirror. They were tired of trying to interact with white people who did not even have the slightest interest in knowing where they were coming from, what they are saying, or respecting and appreciating what they value. It speaks so much for our society today, yesterday, and, sadly and most likely, tomorrow.
(End of Ethnography)
Creating a Solution: Eliminating Racism
Through Learning to Dance
Here is my theory: White people should learn or at least try to learn how to dance black while simultaneously either valuing it as much as they value their dance or at least respecting it as much as they respect their dance. Remember now, I am using dance as a synonym for language and as a synonym for culture. Keep this in mind and it may be easier to replace dance with culture and vice versa in this passage.
The reason that it is critical for white people to learn the dance of black culture is so that white people can be not only aware of black people's perspective, be sensitive to it, and value it as good and valid, but so they can work to eliminate the privilege given to whiteness—meaning those characteristics and people in America that is termed as white. (Having privilege here means having special value. So white in America has special value at the expense of black)
That means dismantling the privilege given to knowledge that is predominantly mind-originated and working for a valuing of knowledge that is holistic meaning knowledge that incorporates the body as well as the mind. That means dismantling the privilege given to aspects of American society that have been structured and conditioned primarily and predominantly by white people—i.e. our school system (colleges and universities too), the standard in which we evaluate performance and intelligence, etc.
This work aids the process of eliminating racism which is having prejudice (ex. white is always better) and the power to enact it (ex. A white person stopping a black person from getting X job because that black person is not white, culturally or phenotypically). Racism is also believing in the inherent superiority of a particular race. The implication of believing in the inherent superiority of a particular race is that all those that do not fall into that category become less than or somehow deficient or down right bad.
Now, what that means is that white (culture or features) have become sacred in American society—hence the statement, "White is always right.” So, for some people, it may seem horrific or like a tragedy to speak of dismantling what they have held so very sacred. Let me specify here. I do not mean that white gets devalued when I say white privilege should be dismantled. No, on the contrary, white people should value their whiteness (whatever that means for people), just not at the expense of another. Shoot, I value my blackness (I know what that means for me. Email me about it if you want to know). I can't stand when white people say, "I hate being white” or "I hate white people” or "I only like black people." NOOOOOO! Don't eliminate privilege by self-hatred, white people. Eliminate privilege through either working to give everyone privilege (value) or conversely, giving no one privilege (value) over another.
One may ask why blacks don't just learn to dance with white people instead of white people learning to dance with blacks. Well, to whoever you are thinking this, what I have to say is that black people have been shucking and jiving with white people for years. It's time for whites to give up some privilege, for peace's sake.
For our survival, black people had to know the white person's rhythm (culture). Look at English Ebonics[2] and "standard" English. To write my papers in college, I had to use and learn the grammar of "standard" English when I usually speak in the English form of Ebonics. I would always tell my professors, why can't I just talk to you or debate with you rather than write a paper? Or why can't I write a poem or do a dance instead of writing an essay? This is not saying that writing is not important, for it is, but why can't I couple it with another form of expression or even another dialect of English? (I believe this has to do with valuing and devaluing. Or "following tradition""meaning following "white is right." People don't like to admit this to themselves.)
This is also represents a battle inside myself to stay sane because I have come to value certain aspects of white culture, but also know that those aspects are rooted in a disregard, disrespect, and a devaluing of black culture, something that I have internalized and made sacred inside myself. So often, this battle, at times, makes me want to throw away or destroy anything that is white inside myself or any symbols of whiteness around me or conversely, throw away or destroy anything that is black inside (outside) myself. Dubois talks about this in his reference to the "double consciousness" of black folks. He says
His [the Negro's] double-consciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. One ever feels his two-ness,"an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings; two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.[3]
Since I can't escape white culture in this society, the only way to reconcile this terror inside of me is to help alter white culture to value black culture"to value me. That is what this article intends to do.
So now I am saying white people have to learn to dance with us, if they want to unlearn racism and reconcile its effects. I realize that I have gone as far as I can go with trying to dismantle racism. White people, it is your turn. It can only be finished if you let it be finished.
Furthermore, it is important for white people to know and value the dance of black people's culture (or of any person of color's culture) because white people in this country have been bred to be mono-cultural and bred to devalue other ways of being that are not like theirs. This has the consequence of further obscuring reality"or realities that are strongly felt and lived by others. So, in a sense my particular double consciousness is both a blessing and a curse. However, it does not have to be a curse. It is only a curse because one of the consciousnesses that I have come to value degrades and tries to eliminate the other consciousness that I have strongly internalized as my basic self. It is a blessing to have more than one way of looking at the world. For example, I learned in a neurobiology class that the nervous system has at least six ways to receive the same information: hearing, touch, taste, smell, sight, and proprioceptors. As my professor said, "It helps us get things less wrong as well as adds more depth to what we perceive."
In other words, our body purposely has multiple perspectives that come into conflict with one another in order to get the sharpest notion of what actually is going on. This is reason enough to unlearn racism. Racism prevents people from a depth and sharpness in their perception. Conflicting realties are not inherently bad. People make different ways of seeing bad. Our nervous system seeks different perspectives, knowing that difference can not only be helpful, but also good.
To relate this again to dancing: That is not telling every white person to go find a black person and ask them to teach you their culture. That is ridiculous. What I am saying to white people is, be aware that (black) dancing has a grammar"rules of engagement. Try to find out what they are in a respectful manner that has in mind that not every black person, all or any of the time, is interested in teaching white people their grammar. Keep in mind that there are some things that cannot be spoon-fed and require the arduous task of experience and learning by oneself. Also keep in mind, like my friend Kathy said, give black people the time, space, and respect to appreciate, enjoy, marvel in, get relieved by their own culture, by themselves.
Also, more importantly, keep in mind that black people learn your grammar by spending time with white people and in white and white-originated institutions. That is not saying that white people should flood black communities and black institutions (that has all sort of problems like gentrification, and violating the importance of respecting organizations and spaces for affinity groups).
What it is saying is that something will be lost if you just learned black culture through books, movies, television, music videos on BET and MTV, jazz C.D.'s, other forms of recorded black music, artifacts, and whatnot. Basing one's view of a people solely on any one of these can be problematic on so many levels, especially since the media grossly misrepresents or complete stereotypes of what they choose to portray of black culture.
What I am saying is to also GO TO THE PRIMARY SOURCE"black people. That first means putting a face to all that you love of black culture and loving that face as well"loving meaning valuing. This does not make everything accurate or peaceful, but like I once said, you would be skeptical of someone's ability to speak Spanish if they told you they never met a native-Spanish speaker, never been to a Spanish-speaking country, and solely learned Spanish and what they know about Spanish culture from reading a book.
All and All
If white people begin to work to actively dismantle the privilege given to whiteness and give value to blackness, if this occurs, one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers gettin' down wit their bad selves. If this occurs, I believe white people and black people can finally dance together, well at least figuratively.
That's my story and I am sticking to it. Peaceeeeeee. No, seriously, peace.
[1] http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0627018.html
¨ I admit some people, even some black people, don't know or haven't thought of what black culture and black people mean in America literally. That is fine because I am willing to bet that those acculturated into black culture know what it means intuitively"in other words, they know it through its feeling or feeling in general. Recognizing what black people mean includes valuing them as human-beings"living, rational, irrational, and moral beings. But what I truly mean is valuing their contributions as a people to not only American society, but also American identity and culture.
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonics
[3] W.E.B. Du Bois (1868"1963). 1903. The Souls of Black Folk: "Of Our Spiritual Strivings." Chicago: A.C. McClurg & Co.; [Cambridge]: University Press John Wilson and Son, Cambridge, U.S.A.,
so white people can't dance?
this little girl proves your ignorant assumption WRONG!
get it!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKx3UU7hwr0&feature=related
i c
I get your point actually (i am white, european), but your saying that white people are not "loosing themselves" to the music. This is because most of whites in the States are with english-german heritage and their culture has always been based controlling yourself and not letting loose. Well black people dont have that complex. So i say that if a white kid is brought up by black people and the child has no influences from whites, he may become a person who will dance :D
i think your analogy of dance
i think your analogy of dance to language is great. I couldn't agree more. That said, all dances from all cultures have history meaning and roots in that culture. If you try to dance the style of the at culture without understanding the roots and meaning , or language as you put it, you're going to look terrible and possibly offend people who do understand, regardless of your skin color.
It is very possible though, to learn the "language" of another culture's dance. Look at the funk style scene world wide. Those dances are firmly rooted in the tradition and culture of the black community in the united states. And yet, the best, most soulful dancers out there come from every race, not just the one most commonly associated with that culture.
The problem you are running into at a club is the same one I do. If I go to a club and start locking, people will imitate me, they have no understanding of the language, and os it is rather irritating. Especially when they pretend to understand. This behavior isn't limited to white people though. Stereotypically you may see it from white people more often because they come from a different cultural background, their race or skin color has nothing to do with it.
and on the subject of racism in general. You talk about how whiteness is valued above everything else in America. While I'm sure you've seen a lot to support that stance, and I am also certain that in some cases its true, I ask you to consider that it goes both ways in the name of diversity. You mention black people being denied jobs because they aren't white. I have seen that happen, but I have also seen white people denied jobs in favor "racially diverse" candidates. Racism is basing opinions or decisions off of race, no matter which way it goes.
So, in conclusion. Dance is certainly a language, it must be learned and understood as such to be done properly. It is a part of all cultures, and all should be respected. No matter what your race,though, if you are willing to understand, you can learn to speak the language correctly, and likely find a common connection with people a culture very different form yours.
Look at all the non-blacks getting worked up!
I'm sorry, but regardless of whether or not people like it, I think the stereotype is true.
In school, the people I knew who danced PHENOMENALLY were black, or mixed black. Not white, not Asian, but black.
I'm half-white, half-Asian and I can't dance for shit. I remember being told that I danced like a "whitey" by my white boyfriend aha!
Why bicker about this? Everyone is entitled to equal and fair treatment, but equality only runs so deep. THERE ARE certain things that some races do better than others, just like there are certain things men are good at that women aren't, or certain things that animals can do and we can't. What's the big deal?
No need to get so up-tight. People will choose to believe what they want.
This topic is dumb.
Im a black 19 year old girl and I think this article is very racist. it started out to be nice in the first paragraph but after she kept saying white people for the 80 hundredth time I got the feeling she doesn't like white people too much. Anyone can dance good really, it depends on the individual.
Dance as communication
You begin your essay by explaining that dance is communication. As 1/2 of an interracial marriage I'd have to say that communication is the thing needed the most between white and black people in race relations today. That night in the club, the moment that white people tried to take down the barriers and communicate with you (using your language... even if it was poorly), you became offended.
Yes, I agree with you that the divided nature of that club was unfortunate, but I also believe that your actions contributed to that segregation.
Thank you for explaining
Thank you for explaining that! I had no idea that dance was a language. I will never look at it the same again. Honestly thank you.
Ignorance
this girl is completely ignorant cause i am black and she is the reason that all racism things continue today. You say that this man humped you and pinched your butt and is that something that only white people do or something? why would you get mad white people in general for that. You should be mad at the guy, but there are some black people that do the same thing to women. So i think you are just a subconcious racist and havent realized it yet and need to cause this whole post was stupid
This article is the greatest
This article is the greatest exponent of stupidity I have ever read, it stink of racial superiority and falls right into the liberal, self deprecating, white middle class, lefty , Trotsky, laps, like all good rubbish should. Not too dissimilar to movies, White men cant jump or Stupid White Girls. What you seem to forget is the white man give you tap dance, yes, that's right, created in the Caribbean with the white Irish. And speaking of the Irish, aren't they white, their dancing has been celebrated and renowned all across the globe for its splendor and superiority. I suppose this has nothing to do with rhythm or grove traits you seem to think are confined to Black people. There are not many Black ballet dancers or salsa dancer, and by the way, Disco was invented by those white folk in that big bad white land commonly referred to as Europe.
Dancing is quite a large subject to cast color on
I've danced in clubs and in social arenas for a long time. Being white there's always the cast of 'you can't dance' and other nonsense. To another perspective though, many whites are taught to make fun of dancing so it is a social trend that is no harder to break than simple education. There is no color I'm aware of that allows for better dance abilities, and by simply thinking forward out of the box someone can easily escape all of this nonsense.
Wow, the racism in this
Wow, the racism in this article is so blatantly obvious that even with your ideas of dance expression etc, you lose all credibility. To the person who said Shayna should be an anthropologist, that is completely absurd. Anthropology with specific regard to cultural study involves the concept that all cultures are unique and acquire differences that should be respected, rather than persecuted. Shayna's ethnocentric values and arrogant perspective is nothing short of racism and is definitely a far cry from having anthropological understanding. The only culture she claims to understand is her own, and saying that everyone else should just conform to that specific culture so as to create "harmony" is no different than Hitler saying conformity to the system of Eugenics and creation of the perfect race, is the only way to achieve aforementioned concept. Peace is obtained through acceptance of everybody's differences, whether they be traditional, religious or even opinionated thoughts; not through conforming to one specific culture. And people like you are the reason peace in this world will never come to exist.
The Real Truth Of It All
What the hell is the point in all of this. Why is it that every damn thing ends up being about race or ethnicity. Dance is about expression period and is left to interpretation. Just like music dance can be used to drive a wedge between people or bring them together. I am white but grew up in a mostly minority Asian population. A lot of people say Asians can't dance but that most certainly is not true. I can find just as many blacks that can't dance either but that doesn't mean they are more white or have lost their blackness so to speak. Asians even have it worse as they don't fit into either group. So if an Asian has both black and white influences then what does that make them? To say whites can't dance is just as ridicules as saying whites can't play Basketball. So is a Ballerina not a dancer? Is modern dance or contemporary dance not dance either. Kinda like saying Golf isn't a sport. It really comes down to people just don't want to interact with others which are indifferent from themselves.
It is just easier to stay within the confines of your own race. Kinda like politics as one side will always oppose the other even if it is in everyone's best interests. If you cross party lines you are looked as being a traitor and conspiring with the enemy. One side is diametrically opposed to the other so to speak. It is all stupid ideology and the same applies to dance. Dance is different to different people but doesn't make it any less dance. If my Hiphop-ness is not black enough then so be it. Who said anyone has a copyright in how it should be done. If blacks dance modern dance and it isn't' white enough what gives them that right as it is their own interpretation. Maybe it would be better off that we don't dance or communicate at all. At least then no one could complain about the other. If we were never meant to communicate with each other then the world was just a failed experiment from the start. Why in god's creation create a world with so many different ethnicity's, cultures and customs if we can't at least try to communicate as it would be pointless. So my dancing isn't black, Asian, Hispanic or white enough etc. Who the hell cares as long as long as it comes from the soul then it really shouldn't matter.
Hammer Phor to Meta
I just felt like I got hit by a metaphorical sledge hammer. Cor, this essay seems merely a reaction to an incident that has been pathologically extended with assumptions and the writer’s logic. I hope sincerely it is not an proverbial beating stick to justify the requirements of respect and knowledge. I would very much easily be switch around on the writer to say they are not aware of social graces and etiquette. Or just enjoy provocation and being thin skinned.
Situation, how did the writer fall into the spirit and maintain the ability make such as detailed observation, I am perplexed.
Why can’t we go onto the next stage of human development where grace meets etiquette and drop the barbarian why of dealing with a matter that could have been handled with the words. Excuse me, we are dancing here or please do not disturb.
I enjoy discourse that is factual discourse.
This is not a ‘black people’ and ‘white people’ is sure for sure it seems more like a generation issue relating to basic education. Let us see not to get it twisted where we belong to ‘one world people’ and we could aim to be ‘one people’. This might be an ideal, but what else is there, a sycophantic-tilt to bias for favour?
EBP
ps. I'm Humbless.
Get Over It
We all need to come to terms that we live in America and realize the year we live in. America is now the melting pot of the world. We have cultures from all over the world here. You can't just tell people "You don't understand MY culture" and get angry at them. How will they ever understand your culture that way? Those who just want to argue that no one understands their "culture", and have no business trying to experience it, (because this IS America, and we have every right) should take their traditions and return to Europe, Africa, Asia, where ever.....and leave those who are willing to understand and experience each other traditions, pasts, and cultures here in America. We are all invaders here. None of us belong here. But since we are here now, let's make the best of it and stop arguing about the past and our differences! Here's a new tradition we should all adopt to pass on to new generations. It's called "acceptance of others". I am German and my best friend is Jewish. We don't sit around still blaming each other over the halocaust!!! GET OVER IT!
Haha wow you've got some
Haha wow you've got some stones saying "white people" don't have rhythm when we have hundreds of years worth of music that MORE than proves it. For one listen to some Led Zeppelin....and 2 i think people like you just need to grow up and stop judging people on colour. its exactly that kind of attitude thats just gonna keep this whole racial hate thing continuing to rule us all. Im White and im damn proud of it just as proud as you are to be what you are. Yes i understand theirs some strange things we do...but theirs strange things you do... And every race discriminates against whites as much as we do you anyway but the thing that makes me angry is have you noticed that by the laws and courts their is no such thing as discrimination against the "White Man". Do you see the problem with this? .. Anyway our history is just as impressive and worth while as anyone elses. Anyway i hope you can learn to love people for who they are one day bro.
This is one of the best
This is one of the best message threads I've read in a long time. There is a lot that I agree and disagree with in the OP and subsequent posters comments. As an American who is traveling overseas (and hitting the clubs every night) I find all the different dance styles/expressions/languages, refreshing. Thank you for the food for thought...and the dose of good ol' fashion American discourse. LOL
You sure have a messed up
You sure have a messed up idea of what racism is.
Interesting, to say the least...and not in a good way.
Racism
This entire article is racist. Pure and simple. No one is qualified to say that an entire race of people is unable to dance. Who the hell are you? Did you invent dance? Dancing is a cultural oddity. It varies in style, music, even in the reason for dancing. Dancing can be ritualistic, it can be just for personal enjoyment, it can be used to woo or seduce; even military drill is a form of structured dance, with its rhythm and cadence and synchronicity. Such a statement, that white people cannot dance, shows ignorance. Many of our parents think that our dances today are garbage, compared to those of their time. You are making a biased and subjective statement, but attempting to cover it with an objective justification, which is a facade. You should know better than that. I'm ashamed and slightly amused at your lack of intelligence. As a 21 year old black male who was born in the most racist state in the union, I know racism when I see it, regardless to which color it comes from.
Not True!!
I know that black people can't dance better then white people and white people can't dance better then black people. My best friend is black and she can't make her ass vibrate as good as i can and i'm white. though, most people think i'm latino.
He addressed this comment in
He addressed this comment in his essay when he said that he recognizes that there are some white people "raised" black and vice versa. Don't get defensive without reading the article. Plus butt vibrations do not count as dancing.
I can’t find anything in
I can’t find anything in this article that I disagree with. The more and more I study subjects such as sociology or anthropology, the more frustrated I become at dominant society’s marginalization of anything they decide not to approve of. And look at what it does to us—to certain subcultures as standalones, and to us who are a part of dominant society, when interacting with those shunned cultures. Obviously, it’s not just black and white, it’s Native American, Asian, Latino, even white subcultures.
I feel bad for the girl who wrote this article, when some of us readers have called her racist or not “really” black or whatever it is that was said. She is stating an observation mainly drawn from one night, not just as one event but, to me, as a metaphor for separating cultures by color. I do believe race is a social construct—I mean, even Italian people used to be considered black, before society decided they were white, and Asians used to be considered white. For those who think saying race is a social construct is saying that it doesn’t matter, are saying that society doesn’t matter. Which it does. Color is not a social construct to me.
One person who reacted to this article said that she wanted to feel at peace with other cultures. I simply want to feel other cultures—they fascinate me, they inspire me, they make me want to learn more and more about people as individuals. Another person said that their friends and them tried interacting with black people at a club, only to be shunned. This doesn’t surprise me—with the way things have been for so many years, clearly there’s going to be racism and anger and whatnot on both sides. It can be very intimidating for anyone, basically, to try and take a chance.
The author says that she, as a black woman, had to learn to play the game in order to be accepted in dominant society, which is basically run by white people. Which means, learning to talk, hold herself, and so on, in a different way in order to be accepted. I believe that I, as a white, middle-class woman who is automatically accepted by mainstream culture, have a responsibility to learn the dance of black culture. It is just something that has to be done—I owe it to my generation, who had nothing to do with the way things are right now. But, if we let things keep going the way they are, then we are responsible for our children dealing with the same problem. I don’t want to hear about things like this from my kids twenty years from now. It is our responsibility. Yeah, there’s always going to be discrimination. Let’s just work on alleviating the severity of it.
I doubt the author, two years later, will be reading this, but thanks for this article.
And thanks for the comment ...
Indiscriminate? Discriminatory is more like it...
Wow, I had to stop reading this because of the extreme amount of racism, hatred, and bigotry this junk article spewed. I can't believe my tax money is paying for this kind of hate material! Honey, you need to learn about white people and their culture just as much as you think white people need to learn about yours. You took black people at the dance club copying you and pointing at you as positive, but then called white people racist for doing the exact same thing. When white people moved close to you and tried to copy you, it was the greatest compliment in the white culture, but instead of recognizing that, you chose to take it in the most hateful, spiteful way--which means you are the racist, not those white people at the dance. Why are you and those like you so insecure? What is your problem that you have to see every single thing a white person does, from moving their hair out of their eyes to respectfully meeting you in the eye to let you know you have their full attention as a total insult? And for your info, honey, we whites did have our body language until we've almost lost our culture altogether trying to make people like you happy when you will never be with anyone else but your own. Sorry, I won't feel bad for being white and I take articles like yours as complete rubbish written by a bigot. I'm proud of the extremely sensual language of my culture's ballroom dancing and the intricate stories told in ballet. I'll flip my hair out of my face anytime I please regardless of who might be around. I'll speak and think with my brain because I have one and it controls my body rather than the other way around. I will listen to anyone who chooses to share their culture with me as long as they respectfully listen to mine in return so that we may come to a common understanding and common ground. But I will not change my culture to yours just to make you happy any more than you think you shouldn't have to change yours.
24 year old white female who CANNOT dance
i was amazed at reading this article. you are much more observant than many people. it is definitely an issue of culture. i think many black people are born/grow up surrounding others who are very body-aware and rhythmic. I know that at after 24 years of life, I have never seen either of my parents dance, or really even tap their foot along to a beat. I feel that dance IS like a language, and the younger you are when you learn it, the greater the hold you have on it, and the easier it is for you to adapt your dance to other people's dance style. And so like you were saying, it is a barrier, and miscommunication does arise, but in the defense of many white people, it's not from lack of NOT WANTING to understand each other, it's from genuinely not having the skills to know how to do so. which can take years to develop. and if you're not even aware of this concept, then you probably feel lost and don't even know where to start...
Silly Debate
I think this whole debate on racism is quite pointless. We're all equal, simple as that. Let's not isolate ourselves.
Steve
First of all...
First of all I’m a black male and when you mentioned punching the white person in the picture I was like- “something is wrong here”. Can a small incident (what took place in the club) like that cause you to despise an entire race? I believe that highlights personal deep-rooted negative barriers that you have set up between blacks and whites that truly do not exist. I really think you need to take the time, focus, and change that perspective fast. I believe your negative view of white people, expressed in your writing, truly took away from the effectiveness of your paper. It turned something that could have had some scientific value into something negative, bias, and very opinionated. As you mentioned the difference in dancing between blacks and whites is cultural- I agree with this. Within the black community dancing is very important where as in white culture it is not. Dancing for black people is in the same league as getting a girlfriend/boyfriend, being popular or being in the “it” crowd, it defines the meaning of cool. This does not exist in the white community. Black children generally grow up encouraged or pressured to dance well by their family or friends, and not knowing how to dance can cause you to be the laughing stalk of the town. When black people do not know how to dance, they well not dance whatsoever in fear of humiliation. Yet white people are more likely to dance even if they do not know how to do so. If black people do not know a certain dance at an event they will not participate but they will go home and practice until they have learned that particular dance. In white culture dancing is not held as high on the importance grading scale, in some instances dances good is looked upon as uncool. However, as mentioned earlier, this difference has to do with cultures. My proposed solution is knowledge. Knowledge is needed in order for white people to understand that dancing is more important to blacks and for blacks people to understand that dancing is less important to whites. So in conclusion, one solution to this problem is for black people to lower their dancing standards a little and for white people to raise theirs in order to find a common ground. This would result in a new unified culture.
Judging by the way you write
Judging by the way you write I can tell that you're a smart guy, well smart enough to post a well written theory with a seemingly logic chain of events that would suit your initial NEED to say something.Now I could spend my time guessing why it is that you have that NEED( yes NEED in capital letters,because let's face it no one would write such a long post,gather that much information to try to back up a claim that attacks an entire race just for sport)but for obvious reasons you would never admit to anything I'd say even if you knew I was right.It is the content of your little theory that I am going to adress, but because I have a life and also because not much more is need I will speak in very general terms.There are 2 billion white people alive, this number is rounded down.The simple idea of you talking about white people as a whole is a testament to your innocence,are you telling me that the difference between people is merely their colour and nothing else?Like the fact that your skin is black induces certain behaviours?I'm thinking you're not since I see you talking about culture(which this time DOES influence) and how determining it is, can you see the gigantic flaw in your theory? You're considering a white people culture!There is no such thing, I have been in Africa and I can tell you that I have seen a much greater proximity between my culture and Angolans than with German people for which I see little.Do you realise that I would be normal for me to have a greater share of culture and hence proximity with you than would have with a Senegalese?And I'm guessing your black just like your guessing I'm white and we're both right.While I'm writting this people are being slaughtered in the Republic of Congo for being from a different minority, these guys live in the same country in neighbouring villages.There are 53 countries in Africa, they don't bond so well.Brazil is one of the mostly diversified countries in terms of population(mix of Portuguese,native americans,black slaves,dutch..)and yet it never split and formed smaller countries like the spanish countries in latin america did.I hope you read this.Tell me what you think.
Ask who cares about dancing?
Ask who cares about dancing? Not everyone does, so including them as straw people to bolster some contrived argument is disingenuous.
How about looking at a Gresham's Law of culture, where bad (noisy, intrusive, etc) drives out good in times where many don't want to get sucked into a vacuum of sorts and avoid public appearances - see Disco in the recession aftermath of the mid-70s as an example.
How are your actions not
How are your actions not racist? How is it that If I tried the same thing in a predominatly black club, it would not just be dirty looks I would Get? The real problem with racism is YOU! Will you respond to this or be a typical liberal and not even post it?
The reason some black people
The reason some black people like you have issues is because you have the amount of pigment in your skin as your identity. If you ask me who I am I probably wouldn't list "white" but if I asked you one of the firsts things you would say is that you're black.
The white girl in the club trying to join in didn't see you as "black people". She just saw people dancing and wanted to join in.
The whites touching you're hair wasnt doing it because you was black. Im a 17 y/o white woman and i always touch anyone's hair for the record! it's not a "white" thing though you're just paranoid.
White people just don't see colour as much as you obviously think and that's why many of us don't even believe racism exists that much anymore. (Here in England anyway). We see our own race as normal and everyone else as normal too but they (you) appear to separate *yourself* like putting yourself into breeds, like dogs.
I wanted to understand why peole still whine about racism so I just imagined myself as a black girl and there was a vague sense of isolation so I totally understand the "two souls" description. The reason for this is not other people's fault, it's your own for being insecure.
I know it's not written well but try and *get* what I'm saying. As a woman, did you ever suddenly get the feeling that the penny dropped and you suddenly *understood* things, not just the meaning of the word?? Empathy? Try and understand because I totally thoroughly understand what you says but the thing is you're wrong!!!
I've got so much more to say about this but it's 5 in the morning and I'm not that articulate
i agree !!!But a black man
i agree !!!But a black man cant dance like a white man with class style and non sexual.Like a gentleman
Mixing metaphors:
Saying "white people can't dance" is kind of like saying "black people can't do calculus."
Dangerous, sad and false.
Anyway. I'm blonde and blue, a professional gogo dancer and hula hooper. I've danced with and for people of all backgrounds and ethnicities. Your essay is just kind of sad and underwhelming.
You've made such a detailed study of the ways "white" people affected your experience, and much of it was totally legit (people invading your space, or behaving in sexually inappropriate ways). But you also spent a lot of time deriding the expression (the "grammar"?) of "white" dancers because their performance didn't meet your "black" minimum requirements of funkitude. And interpreted this as a purposeful affront on your cultural expression.
Sure, there are differences in dance across cultures, but you can't argue for sensitivity and insist upon privilege at the same time.
What I'm wondering as someone who has danced to put food on my table is: would we have mutually acknowledged each others' space? Would we have perhaps danced together? Or would I have had to take your ass to school? :)
See you on the dance floor.
go go dancing, are you sure
go go dancing, are you sure that's a real type of dance, You want to know what real type of dancing is, it's called liquid dance, poppers, Ravers, Well this article is about white people in bars/nightclubs and not like formal dancing like Dancing with the Stars. There's a difference, in clubs you dance to popular music and on television, it's all choreographed. So this article is about white people in nightclubs, and it's true. There are very few white people who stand out of the crowd, personally myself I stand out of the crowd. It's not because I'm Asian, it's because I dance like no ones watching, I'm a raver, and no I don't take E. If you go to a rave then there are some really skilled white ravers, So this is only referring to regular nightclubs. So that is my opinion.
I think it comes down to the
I think it comes down to the type of music that's playing. It's easier to drop it like it's hot to Snoop as opposed to Britney Spears. I think some people try too hard to dance to music that they don't normally listen to, then they make for a funny story while you're taking a dance break at the club.
The thin line
What is wrong with this essay? you were saying you were indiscriminate and you are absolutly right, the root word you should have chose, was effort.
“They can’t speak the language of music.”
I am a musician, I also speak art, dance and yes I am white. Now I can already see you writing, well, I’m not implying everyone or you but I’m implying the majority of a white society, I’m assuming.
Maybe I need to re-read your paragraph but nowhere did I see, I tried to make an effort to understand their dance, instead, you noticed all the negatives around you and forgot the whole “enjoying your time.”
So you want people to make an effort to understand your dance, to understand culture but have you considered Ballet? Have you considered waltz? These are more uptight/graceful dances, do you think you could pull it off?
There are two root problems, neither of them having to do either with racism or discrimination, rather your personality.
You didn’t make an effort to compromise or come to our level or vice/versa
I find you very negative (For example..)
"you wouldnt be that womans puppet."
(you could have politely said, Thanks for the compliment, we are taking a short break but will going back soon or something along that line.
I play piano, when I hear someone playing off notes; it does bother me but think about it, at one point in my life I was driving someone else crazy, they endured my off notes and crackly voice for hours, hours spent and well today I built something from nothing. I am bringing my children up on my value of music, although I can get a headache, you have to learn somewhere right?
It is the progress/results that make you realize all those headaches and notes made a nice song of “twinkle twinkle little star.”
Now none of us are perfect, we all need to vent in a positive way but have you ever thought of actually showing someone, taking a minute or two of your time, to show someone a piece of your language? If you see someone doing wrong, have you ever said, here try it this way?
Just another perspective..
I feel sorry for the white
I feel sorry for the white girl who obviously took a positive and enthusiastic stance with regard to the "disco-army" and tried to join in with the electric slide. Kathy's "brilliant reply" doesn't convince me at all. I imagine that girl felt excluded and ignored and perhaps a little humiliated. I wonder if she punched a poster of a black man later that night. If you really wanted to heal from the hurt of that evening, try turning to some genuine empathy and understanding instead of clinging to your prejudices.
"YOU dont get it"
This is the most offensive, racist, ridiculous thing I have ever read. "white people don't get it"?? you don't get it sweetheart. you think youre clever because you compare dancing to a language? this is just another way for black people to dump all their problems on the "white man." stop blaming other people for your issues. people are rude no matter where you go. I've been shoved by plenty of black people and white people alike, does that mean no one gets me? dont go to a club if you dont want people crowding you. and newsflash, the electric slide was created by a white guy, and my family does it at every family gathering. the electric slide isnt a black thing. you have a problem with someone shoving you, or pinching your ass, take it up with them not an entire race. i've had my fair share of black guys grabbing me at clubs, but i dont blame you for that. or maybe i should, clearly it must be all black people who are pigs. same logic, but gasp, because im white it makes me a racist, yet because youre black youre standing up for yourself? what a load of shit. you are to blame for black people's problems. i am an amazing dancer, and not because i have learned your language but because i can dance. dont tell me the only way i can dance is if i learn to be like you. id rather never move again then be a closed minded racist. if you hate white people so much, then dont go to a white club. or better yet, stay home and dance in your living room, then no one would bump into you. do us all a favor and stay home.
"Fred Aistaire, Gene Kelly,
"Fred Aistaire, Gene Kelly, Paula Abdul, Ginger Rogers, John Travolta"
Case in point.
"Excellent essay! Very
"Excellent essay! Very interesting how merely talking in an informed way about the disconnect between Black America & White America generates so much anger and denial. For those who want to be color-blind, consider this metaphor from the Deep South. Universally all kinds of people wear all kinds of clothes, but when the University of North Carolina plays Clemson in football and you are in the stadium, you are either BLUE or you are ORANGE. In that context, trying to make an abstract argument that, "But Gee, Wally, there are *all* kinds of colors in the spectrum!" misses the point of where you are, what's happening around you, and what emotions are dominating that physical space. Likewise, in North America, there are people of all sizes, shapes, and colors, but our history has created a cultural football game in which people are either BLACK or WHITE, and the game is still on."
Maybe you should consider that not everyone who posts here is from America and that strong divides don't exist as strongly everywhere. Blind to other countries and cultures ?
HA!
Ever been outside of America ? ? ? ?
"Imagine with me that you are in the same club, and a black man approaches a white woman he does not know, and humps her leg. Do you think the club will remain as peaceful then? Will all the white men be perfectly content to define that as 'just two individuals?' Or will all heck break loose? More to the point - is anybody willing to put it to the test and find out? I doubt it, because our own instinctive knowledge tells us that carrying out such an experiment would all too likely create a dangerously explosive scenario. But I am open to information to the contrary, so - carry it out if you want to, then reply to me here. Until then, I consider my "thought experiment" to have made the point."
Ever considered that humping a strangers leg in a club is inappropriate ? No matter WHAT colour ?
You didn't think of that in your "little experiment", did you ? The much more pressing question in this scenario is: Why not !!!! ?
"What Shayna has done here is use a public scenario to brilliantly cut through thick layers of societal denial, and expose the constant hatred underneath. As one person explained, hatred hinges on fear. Many white respondents here are terrified of what Shayna wrote"
Not in the slightest. I wouldn't even know why one would be "terrified" of what she wrote. But my guess is that it must have to do with something going on in America between racist "Blacks" and racist "Whites", I do not experience such things here, atleast nowhere near the obsessive extremes I've read coming from American "Blacks", I think there (America) is a lot of deeprooted hatred against "Whites" (and vice versa), something I also don't relate to in the slightest, so another thing that doesn't give me ammo to be threatened by a non-threatening text.
I think it would be good for you to know that humans originate from Africa and that that means all humans are somewhere connected to Africa. Of course that doesn't change the atrocious things "Whites" have done to "Blacks", oh wait, SOME "Whites" have done to SOME "Blacks"... and I think that is something one should look at; it is not ALL "Whites" who were slavemasters, infact, many had nothing to do with slavery, so to tar all "Whites" with the "EVIL WHITEY" brush is really utterly, fucking retarded.. as retarded as some "Whites" thinking every person with a turban is a terrorist... I mean, COME ON..
", but it spills over in the same form it has for the better part of a half-century -- pure hatred and rage."
That's really simplifying things. I also think you have a bad case of blocking out your very own hatred and rage and put all things of the very simplified notion on the "White Man".
"When your insides are gripped by pure hatred and rage, it's much easier not to know it. Shut it off, and live inside your head. That's the only way to stay at peace without constantly going insane."
Is that what's going on with you ? Because I sense a pure hatred and rage coming from you. Oh, it's easier to point fingers and say: "White Man Bad Man, wrong for ALL my misery", whilst denying ones own hatred towards a whole diverse group that is conveniently thrown together; atleast be more selective and precise with who you are targetting. Not all "Whites" had to do with slavery, not all "Whites" are racist, not all "Whites" even think about those things, not all "Whites" are purely "White", not all of those "hidden Black Whites" are descendents of "Masters and Slaves", not all "Whites" relate to this "White" Culture you speak of, and so on....
We are the Human RACE. Skincolour is biological protection from the sun in different regions in the world.
Ignorance is not tied to one ethnic group.
"... Puritanical tradition and white culture's fundamental devaluing and mistrust of the knowledge gathered from and experienced through the body" is an absolute necessity for White America"
I think that's a quite outdated notion. In mainstream western culture the body is now celebrated and, when you look at the western and even eastern musicvideos, it's a diverse mix of ethnic groups; the boundaries are dissolving.
What is "white culture" and can one even use such statements today, in a steadily deteriorating and uniformising "global culture" ?
"If anyone believes in themselves enough to go and really test out my "thought experiment," I say that the immediate result will be that the black man will be thrown out of the club the instant he humps a white woman's leg.
And he will be thrown out by his black peers in the club."
Any man should be thrown out of the club (considering the woman doesn't want her leg humped by a stranger), regardless of skincolour. It's scary you wouldn't even consider the thought that a woman may not like it.
Meaning, being humped by a STRANGER.
I doubt such scenarios are always a matter of race issues.
replying to the cynycism of "anonymous"
Anonymous writes:
"Maybe you should consider that not everyone who posts here is from America and that strong divides don't exist as strongly everywhere. Blind to other countries and cultures?"
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I should. Perhaps you should also consider this. I see no evidence to support your notion that Shayna's essay was ever intended as anything but a comment on USA socio-culture.
anonymous writes:
"?Ever been outside of America ? ? ? ?"
Yes. I made it a point to discuss American culture with several citizens of other countries, specifically to inquire as to their point of view on the USA. Have I passed your little test now? Are you finished with labeling me? Do I get a chance to respond now??
It is tragically clear that you *still* fail to get one of the main points, as have several other posters. I cannot cite the news story without a lot of digging, but I recall it clearly. In that news story, a young Asian man was walking down the street minding his own business, and was killed by members of an urban gang. They killed him because he failed to respond to their demands to identify himself by telling them which "color" (i.e., which gang) he belonged to. He did not identify which gang he was part of, because he was not associated with either gang. In fact, he did not even understand their question. However: in the minds of those gang members, there were only two kinds of people in their world - Gang X, and Gang Y. Can you honestly not follow that parallel? C'mon, give it a try - I think you can see it if you want to.
Alternatively, you can choose to sit in your armchair all day long huffing and puffing at me, explaining that there are *many* more people besides Gang X and Gang Y, and you will STILL have missed the main point -- just as you already missed it once in my "football" analogy above. The assumptions and the thought processes in those gangs is an exact parallel to much of the USA as a whole. It goes like this: (1) there are two basic kinds of people, and (2) they are black and white. You obviously don't know history, or you would see that there have been about 5 centuries that have contributed to that mental duality. There were about three and a half centuries in which white slavers from a handful of European countries bought and sold black slaves to other white people. Entire civilizations grew up around that duality, including the USA. That overwhelming historical trend is largely the thing that set up the scenario we still have in people's minds. To deny that the duality exists in people's minds despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is to be overwhelmingly ignorant of history, sociology, and culture. That ignorance makes it very difficult for me to reply to you in a meaningful way, but I did my best. I still don't think you'll get it, because I don't think you want to get it. And THAT, my kind friend, is exactly what Shayna's essay was all about in the first place.
At least you are beginning to think, even if you have not yet begun to examine your own thoughts.
Thanks for responding.
"Dancing - if it can be said
"Dancing - if it can be said to be communicating anything - is certainly a very primitive and unsophisticated form of language. White people, by their nature, do not use such a low level language since they have evolved a highly advanced and scientific culture with a written and spoken language which has completely replaced pagan forms of communication.
Generally, dancing is just a bit of fun for young white people and not something to be taken seriously."
You don't come across as a Thinker, Thinker
Primitive Passions, Scientific Minds, All Dancing Together
I find delicious entertainment in comments like these:
"Dancing - if it can be said to be communicating anything - is certainly a very primitive and unsophisticated form of language."
Well spoken. Ballet is beneath you. Those silly feather-costumed dancing men and women up on stage believing themselves to be swans, and such paganism as that - they should become Christians and stop all that foolish animal nonsense. They should get computers, and do something sensible with their time.
Then there is this:
"White people, by their nature, do not use such a low level language since they have evolved a highly advanced and scientific culture with a written and spoken language which has completely replaced pagan forms of communication."
This marks you as the sort of "advanced scientific" mind who scorns silly old Mozart in favor of listening in ecstatic trance at those little scientific clicks and hums your computer makes. You are much more scientific than those 'primitive' people such as Beethoven and Van Gogh, whose minds were clouded by their primitive 'unscientific' passions. Obviously we must also include poets like that upstart Keats and that silly old Wordsworth, and writers like Pat Conroy, whose passions come through in their writings. Certainly Michaelangelo communicated NOTHING in those dirty statues and pictures of naked men:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo
Such a waste of time drawing pagan nakedness, Michaelangelo's mother must have been disappointed. He might as well have wasted his time dancing.
Thank you for putting this in perspective. Otherwise I might have gone on seeing value in ancient Egyptian papyrus records from 4,000 years ago pretending to know about a psychiatric condition we know for a fact was never discovered until Freud and his "white scientific culture" discovered it in about 1900. Scholars call them "papyrus cheat sheets," since it is impossible that ancient dark-skinned Egyptians really knew things that were not even discovered until about 1900.
"Generally, dancing is just a bit of fun for young white people and not something to be taken seriously."
Absolutely. Especially those naked men Michaelangelo was obsessed with.
Paul
How is "white" defined ? I
How is "white" defined ? I think of Europeans, which is a B R O A D mix. For instance, Spaniards and Italians, being part of European culture, are brilliant dancer; there goes your theory.... I also always am secretly bemused by the arrogance of people with darker skin who get off on saying that "whites" have no rythmn and that "blacks" are so much better dancers, the arrogance and dullness of such statements make the "dancing better" unsexy because what is of the most importance is the life behind and beyond, or within the movements, authenticity, genuity, so a person who has the right moves but the wrong heart/brain will not be a "good dancer", imo. Furthermore, I'm absolutely positive that if "whites" were raised more bodyconscious/aware of body and rythmn, they'd be better dancers in no time. So it's not really something that comes with mothers milk but in the society or culture you grow up in, therefore it's quite silly to believe, if one does so, that "whites" are naturally bad dancers.
This article especially the
This article especially the title is a perfect example of how hatred of white people either by other races or by whites themselves is encouraged. Here, on an alleged college website, this garbage is accepted. If someone were to post an article changing a few words in the title example :Why________ can't _______________ (You fill in the blanks )using politically incorrect words such as anything critical of non-whites,they would become instant pariahs. This article is very racist .Since I'm Jewish I will show how ignorant, bigoted racist it is by substituting Jews for whites using common David Duke-like anti-semitic comments as examples :Why "Jews" can't be "be trusted by non- Jews" or "can't get along with other people and have been expelled form countless countries" . I reject the idea it's open season on whites. For the author of this racist article consider :Why whites are the best dancers examples Fred Aistaire, Gene Kelly, Paula Abdul, Ginger Rogers, John Travolta. I could name hundreds more but I have much more important things to do with my time.
I like how your final
I like how your final paragraph is titled Creating a solution: Eliminating Racism and then go on to list all the things white people need to do not to offend you. lol Funny how all the stupid little things that these people did to annoy you is considered racism ignoring the fact that all you did all night is hawk eye white people and take note of everything they did. sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder and is to blind to think you yourself might be racist.
White people CAN dance.
Has anyone watched Dancing with the Stars? Has anyone watched a Russian Ballet? It's cultural. Has noting to do with race.
Black people also need to stop the double standards. If white people say something about black people, it's right away called racist yet black people can get away with saying what they want about whites. I'm tired of the political correctness bs.
I'm white, voting for Obama and YES I have used the N word!! Get over it. I hear blacks using the N word every other day and calling white people all kinds of names. Double standard?
What is "black dance"? Do
What is "black dance"? Do you mean dances from Africa??!! Who goes to a CLUB to do their ancestral dance?
Brilliant Essay, Beautiful piece of socio-surgery!
Excellent essay! Very interesting how merely talking in an informed way about the disconnect between Black America & White America generates so much anger and denial. For those who want to be color-blind, consider this metaphor from the Deep South. Universally all kinds of people wear all kinds of clothes, but when the University of North Carolina plays Clemson in football and you are in the stadium, you are either BLUE or you are ORANGE. In that context, trying to make an abstract argument that, "But Gee, Wally, there are *all* kinds of colors in the spectrum!" misses the point of where you are, what's happening around you, and what emotions are dominating that physical space. Likewise, in North America, there are people of all sizes, shapes, and colors, but our history has created a cultural football game in which people are either BLACK or WHITE, and the game is still on. If you do not believe that is real, then let's try a little something that physicists call a "thought experiment." Imagine with me that you are in the same club, and a black man approaches a white woman he does not know, and humps her leg. Do you think the club will remain as peaceful then? Will all the white men be perfectly content to define that as 'just two individuals?' Or will all heck break loose? More to the point - is anybody willing to put it to the test and find out? I doubt it, because our own instinctive knowledge tells us that carrying out such an experiment would all too likely create a dangerously explosive scenario. But I am open to information to the contrary, so - carry it out if you want to, then reply to me here. Until then, I consider my "thought experiment" to have made the point.
Humping some stranger's leg is a message, and in this case it was done in public, which made it a public message. That action was a human billboard, and it gave the exact same message that has been repeated many times during the last 300+ years. It said: "You are mine. I will do to you as I wish, because I own, you, and you belong to me." Slavery may be legally over as an institution, but it is obviously not over in the mind of a man who would publicly hump the leg of a woman he does not know without her permission.
What Shayna has done here is use a public scenario to brilliantly cut through thick layers of societal denial, and expose the constant hatred underneath. As one person explained, hatred hinges on fear. Many white respondents here are terrified of what Shayna wrote, but it spills over in the same form it has for the better part of a half-century -- pure hatred and rage.
When your insides are gripped by pure hatred and rage, it's much easier not to know it. Shut it off, and live inside your head. That's the only way to stay at peace without constantly going insane. The "... Puritanical tradition and white culture's fundamental devaluing and mistrust of the knowledge gathered from and experienced through the body" is an absolute necessity for White America until such time as somebody declares the fierce competition of the White Vs. Black Football Game over and done with. I have a prediction. If anyone believes in themselves enough to go and really test out my "thought experiment," I say that the immediate result will be that the black man will be thrown out of the club the instant he humps a white woman's leg.
And he will be thrown out by his black peers in the club.
Brilliant, brilliant essay, Shayna. Please continue to follow this line of thought, if you feel so motivated. This kind of dialog is needed desperately.
Paul
Second Thought Experiment
Interesting, Paul. You are correct that humping some stranger's leg in public is a message. But, you don't say what that message is.
So here's a second thought experiment.
Two women dancing together in a public club. One especially keeps getting angry at "invasions" into "their space".
When a young woman attempts to befriend ("invade") them she is rebuffed. So far as can be told by the story, though she says the blacks appreciated their dancing and covertly attempted to imitate it, the blacks did not try to either befriend them or invite them into their "black" groupings.
Neither of the two women dances with a man or even seems interested in doing so. No man approaches either of them to ask to dance with them. However, at some point, the women position themselves so they are dancing very closely in the crowd and a man is pressed up against one of the women. Her reaction is to become irate and to physically shove the man and yell curses at him, probably drawing a lot of embarrassing attention to herself and her friend. The friend in fact walks away. In response, the man reacts to being physically assaulted by "hump dancing" the woman who attacked him and then by rushing over to her friend and humping her too.
First off, there is NO evidence that the man had been deliberately "assaulting" the young woman by dancing so close that his back touched her. She even admits that was possible he didn't even know he was making contact. Then after she shoves him and yells at him, she interprets his stunned silence as some kind of "admission" that he had been consciously making contact. What nonsense!
So, let me propose a second thought experiment, and I'll add my answers.
The two women were white.
Would the man have hump danced them when one of them shoved him and yelled at him? DARN STRAIGHT
Explanation:
He was straight and he (and I daresay everyone in the club) saw them as lesbians and when an alleged lesbian assaulted him he sent "the message" that all she needed to "straighten her out" was a good humping by a man like him.
Next half of the thought experiment, with my answers.
The man was black.
Would she, as a black woman, have shoved and yelled? NO
Would she have done so if she were white? ABSOLUTELY NOT
Would a black man being shoved and yelled at by a black woman have just bowed, apologized and walked away? NO, NO, NO
Would a black man being shoved and yelled at by a black woman have probably done exactly the same thing the white man did to the two young black women?
MOST LIKELY
In the end, how possible is it that the crowd saw these two women as troublemakers and probable lesbians? Remember, the writer says that even the blacks would abruptly stop when she caught them trying to copy her dance moves.
That doesn't sound like admiration and respect. They couldn't possibly have known, unless they already knew her, that she considered her dance more than a form of entertainment. If they did, they probably wouldn't have even tried to mimic her moves to begin with, especially if, as blacks they held the same "black" cultural attitude to dance. I believe that the reason they stopped and turned away whenever she caught them copying her moves was because her face showed her extreme displeasure no matter who was doing it, black or white.
My other "anonymous" critic
My other "anonymous" critic writes:
"Interesting, Paul. You are correct that humping some stranger's leg in public is a message. But, you don't say what that message is."
Actually, I did say what the message is. You just didn’t see it. Here it is again, quoted for your singular benefit:
“It [i.e., the message] said: "You are mine. I will do to you as I wish, because I own, you, and you belong to me."
What can I say? How can I respond to someone who constructs a whole reply built around a lack of attention to what I said? You put me in a difficult spot, there, “Anonymous.” Far as I am concerned, you have made one point here, and that is your inability to understand written words. Obviously if I respond to you, you will overlook anything else I say that you don’t like. Again, that was the main message I saw in Shayna’s essay. Again, you didn’t get it.
I can’t see that there is much else to say.
So I will let your own violent anti-gay bigotry have the last word.
“Anonymous” wrote:
“... everyone in the club) saw them as lesbians and when an alleged lesbian assaulted him he sent "the message" that all she needed to "straighten her out" was a good humping by a man like him.”
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